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If you believe that man as part of nature is here to destroy himself and his habitat, then there's nothing I can say about that ... go ahead. But I personally would like to be on the other side of that equation, and work with nature to make this a wonderful place for all species to live in.

Unlike the rest of the nature, we have a consciousness that allows us to have free will.

If we use that free will to exploit nature in a greedy and wasteful way, we will end up sawing off the same branch that we are sitting on.

We can already see the results of this lifestyle in many ways.

The weather patterns are already changing, and although climate change is naturally cyclical, this present one is happening far faster than ever before because of our actions.

We see the adverse affects of working against nature in how we treat our food. We use chemicals to help us grown more crops. But those chemicals have stripped the nutrients out of the soil, so the food is less nutritious. For example, there is far less selenium in our food now than 50 years ago. So because of that, the body doesn't feel it is getting enough nutrition from the food we give it, and thus it sends a signal to our brains to eat more and more. Thus we have increasing obesity problems in the West.

Another way we can see this imbalance reflected is in our health generally. Although we've never been richer, in the West, in terms of material plenty, and despite incredible medical advances, man as a species is getting less and less healthy and fit and, certainly in the UK, hospital waiting lists are overflowing.

I could go on ... the melting of the polar ice caps is already affecting the habitat of the polar bears ...the list is endless.

So man with his freewill has to make a choice, whether to stand with the angels or the devils, metaphorically speaking. I know where I'm standing. But maybe that's because I know that the earth is not an inanimate object, but a spirit who loves mankind enough to give it a home.

Ahh - but what if nature truly wants our demise in order to progress us or itself to the next level and we are impeding it?

What if .. what if ...

You yourself once said that this a classroom and that we're to learn.

So if you want to blow up the science lab, go ahead!

I'll be in the library.

Just messin' with ya'
But still trying to point out that mankind does not know what nature or the universe or the gods have in mind! We only see from our own gilded existence what we want to see and that can be a very different picture that what is actually there.

rich wrote:Just messin' with ya'
But still trying to point out that mankind does not know what nature or the universe or the gods have in mind! We only see from our own gilded existence what we want to see and that can be a very different picture that what is actually there.

We can see.

But a few thousand years ago, we chose to stop seeing.

Now some people are getting that ability back - are becoming the new seers - and they will tell you categorically that the spirits, the gods, the universe and all that is has man's best interests at heart and wants man to thrive. It's only man that doesn't!

I don't know - maybe - maybe not. If you told that to the people of Pompey they would have died anyways. I haven't yet seen anyone live for a thousand years - we're not supposed to. We're supposed to live and enbjoy it - afterall - what good is it if you can't enjoy. I know - I'm hedonistic - what can I say!
But if nature or the universe or the gods are trying to do schtuffs for our own good - I wish they wouldn't do it by drowning the thousands that died with that massive tsunami, or all the people that must have died during the ice age - or - or -. Either way - it's all a roll of the dice and sooner or later it all ends. The Norse mythology had it right - everthing will end in cold. So why not make it hot while we can!!!!!!!!!

Living to an old age is not the purpose of human life. Neither is being immortal. Nothing in nature last forever. Everything has its reason and its season.

It's not quantity but quality the counts. It's not how long you're here. It's what you do with it while you are here that matters.

So like I said .... I'll be in the library.

So what did the Polar Bears do last time the ice melted Ish?

I don't know, Dig.

They didn't die out is my point Ish. Man has always interacted with and dominated the landscape, there is nothing new about it. We generally do not live long enough to appreciate the changes. What we are familiar with is our idea of 'normal'.
Man's effects on his surroundings causes winners and losers, and make no mistake Ish other species can, at least locally, have a far more negative effect than we do.

I really can't believe I'm having to argue in favour of conserving energy to help slow down the effects of global warming. This is science and you guys usually tell me off for not respecting science enough.

The facts are there - the scientists all agree that if we don't act quickly, the world will be a very different place in say 50 years time than it is now.

I want there to be a world for my grand-daughter to grow up in where she is able to enjoy a wonderful, rich life full of experience and beauty. I want her grand children to have the same thing, and their grand-children ...and so on.

So that's what I'm doing.

All the rest of it is time wasting nonsense. Dig, you are just intellectually befuddling the issues. You are like Nero fiddling as Rome burns. In Rich's case, he dances like a mad jester but that's because he's really a cat on a hot tin roof with nowhere safe to stand.


I know where to stand and I'm standing there ... and I shouldn't have to defend it.

No Ish, not all scientists agree! I've been following this debate since the 70s and since then EVERY prediction by the G & D merchants has been wrong!.
If Al Bore and his cohort's early predictions had come to pass you would be standing on your desk by now.
There are two different points here, GW versus man made GW.
GW is a fact!
Man made global warming is not proven and every single prediction has been reduced in danger and even proven wrong.
Take a look at the graph I posted on the 700000 yr old thread and you will see that we have been warming for 1000s of years.
Taking your point about befuddling and science. Science is only applicable if the science is correct and takes account of all parameters. You have obviously done some reading on the GW point, but how much of your studies have included Solar, and extra solar effects, cloud formation or the effects of Earth's tilt. Many of the supporters of MMGW refuse to take these factors into account and not one computer model, of the hundreds that have been run, predicted the warming of the poles or the current downward trend in temps.
They might be correct but their science is half baked!

Also Ish - scientists only find what they are paid to find - and more importantly - it only gets published if it fits in with what someone with enough money backs it. Kind of a science to fit the bill if you will, not true science, and maybe that's why it sways this way and that - depends so much on who is paying and how much. Religion too usually.

Ishtar wrote:I really can't believe I'm having to argue in favour of conserving energy to help slow down the effects of global warming. This is science and you guys usually tell me off for not respecting science enough.

[obligatory rant]Well, for what it's worth, I absolutely disagree that the Earth is a nurturing spirit (not your exact words I suspect so I apologise for the possible misquote), rather I would say it's a vast, impersonal and resolutely non-sentient ball of rock which, for reasons that others (try Carl Sagan) have stated with far more eloquence than I ever could, I would say is wonderful beyond description (sorry - my feeling is that the need to superimpose human concepts onto natural phenomena is uneccessary and even a bit of a shame).[/obligatory rant]

HOWEVER, for once, Ish, we're singing from the same hymn shit here, even if my version sounds less like Gong and more like the Sex Pistols. Even if humanity has contributed to global warming not one jot, something is certainly happening, pumping the biosphere full of shite obviously isn't going to help any, therefore I can't see why anyone would object to the basics of you know... maybe looking into less dirty energy sources and so on. Maybe saying TOUGH SHIT to some of the more pointlessly overprivileged representatives of our species - changes must be made.
Don't put me in charge.
You wouldn't like me when I'm in charge.

(rest of post edited because I started ranting about what would happen if I were Global Overlord)

Right you two!

Next time I say that about science, and you're arguing with me about it, I shall just refer you to your last posts here. You're virtually quoting me word for word!

Of course I know all that. But I can see the effects of global warming in my own lifetime, in the last ten years. I know its happening and I don't want my grand daughter to have to cope with a terrible legacy, if I can help it.

So whatever can be done to mitigate/slow down or even prevent these effects, I'm in favour of. It's a simple as that.

And there's another factor which is more practical - rising oil prices. It's not healthy for our country to be dependent on others for their energy, particularly with oil prices being as they are and no hope of improving. It could even turn out to be a matter of national security. So we need to develop newer and hopefully cleaner ways of producing energy in our own backyard and what do we have loads of? Wind!!!!

Gordon Brown announced 7,000 new wind turbines for Britain yesterday, and most of them will be in the North Sea, replacing the old oil and gas fields. The government is also pushing through legislation so that planning permissions will be obtained more quickly, bypassing the NIMBYs. This is necessary because this has seriously hampered wind farm development in the UK as investors favour companies building them in Europe where the planning works much quicker.

Also, at the moment, the British government is talking to the Spanish government (who are good at rproducing solar power, naturally!) about adapting and joining up our grids so that we can all switch between solar and wind power as we need to, and possibly supply more than just our two countries. This is serious, grown up and on the table stuff and its really happening - I know this through the work I'm currently doing.

So there are good reasons to do clean up our act apart from global warming.