Africa/Egyptian presence and jewelry in Mesoamerica?

[War Arrow]

Uhm sorry - hadn't had a fag in 3 days and in all honesty my life is fucking miserable right now so I'm maybe a bit over-sensitive, and now I've gone and turned this into a thread about me.

I suppose what I'm saying, in hopefully calmer terms, is the same as I said up there. I distrust the (deep breath) posthumous cultural imperialism of claiming the innovations of one cultural group for another, and having been up to the eyeballs in Mesoamerica for some time, I do (as dannan14 observed) get very defensive because I just seem to see this same thing time and time again - so let's see: [sarcasm] someone else taught them how to build pyramids, they were thick human sacrificing fuckers who never invented the wheel, the Olmecs were from Africa (just waiting for the giant head thing to come up again), and now they couldn't even cope with making a few earrings without help. Oh and there's 2012 of course - now that's quite interesting. [/sarcasm]

I've nothing against some of the more fringe-y debates around here, the boats thing for example strikes me as plausible, and the Chinese thing suggested by FM - I disagree but (Jesus Christ!) at least it isn't just purely some abitrary bit of posthumous ideas colonisation - I can see what goes into that theory. Just the sheer laziness of this crap gets on my big hairy man-tits.

I mean if we want to talk about Africa I say Hell Yes! Africa is a vast continent with an astonishing history that seems poorly understood because so few bother to actually investigate it, and I've heard it said that for every pyramid that gets excavated in egypt, roughly a trowel's worth of dirt is dug up in the rest of the continent. Archaeologically speaking Africa seems to have had a raw deal (Egypt excepted) and as such its past continues to be unknown or poorly quantified thus perpetuating the myth that there's nothing worth looking at there.

(cue trumpets)

I think this whole business of understanding our (speaking globally) history is important, particularly with the world in the state it is in at present - you destroy a culture by destroying its history. This is sadly (well, okay then OBSCENELY) what happened (to some extent) to the natives of North America, Africa (excepting Egypt) has apparently barely been granted a history in the first place, and of the history we do have some ideas about, I think its important to avoid getting too carried away with interpretation just for the sake of interpretation or some personal agenda.

If we want to go fringe (and I'm sorry but to me this just so often seems like the core subject is just too hard to cope with so let's make stuff up - the archaeology version of 'hey! what if Hitler won WWII') then fair play if there's something that needs to be explained (coastal migrations and so on - there's a point and a logic there) but please, as my one non-Mexican God (Richard Dawkins) said "please by all means be open-minded, but let us be careful that we are not so open-minded that our brains fall out" (or words of similar effect).

Apologies for being such a miserable bugger, for hijacking this thread, and thanks for being nicer to me than I probably deserve.

Ishtar - if you're flirting with me, it's working, so please feel free to continue.

[Ishtar]

Ishtar - if you're flirting with me, it's working, so please feel free to continue.

I don't know if this is flirting - but just to say I read all your posts, even when they are on subjects I know nothing about, because they are always so brilliantly written. And you also do that warm tone thing which makes my toes tingle.

But that said, I also think you're an utter wimp for whining that you should leave because you're the only one on here that thinks as you do. What about me? Most people here used to think I was a total nutter and some still do. No-one agreed with me for ages on anything except John, and no-one could understand what he was saying. Beagle is still convinced that I'm some bastard love child of Marduk and Archie! But still I stay...it doesn't phase me .... and I thought you were British and made of sterner stuff.

[Digit]

Whadda mean, used to?

Actually WA I would doubt that major cultural changes like suddenly start building pyramids 'cos some stranger from across the seas built them would actually happen, but that does not preclude contact between east and west.
In NA the Indians didn't suddenly start building houses in brick 'cos the white man did and the whites didn't suddenly start erecting Wigwams.
Initial contact was for trade. We got baccy and they got fire arms!

[War Arrow]

Ishtar - if you're flirting with me, it's working, so please feel free to continue.

I don't know if this is flirting - but just to say I read all your posts, even when they are on subjects I know nothing about, because they are always so brilliantly written. And you also do that warm tone thing which makes my toes tingle.

Blimey!

But that said, I also think you're an utter wimp for whining that you should leave because you're the only one on here that thinks as you do. What about me? Most people here used to think I was a total nutter and some still do. No-one agreed with me for ages on anything except John, and no-one could understand what he was saying. Beagle is still convinced that I'm some bastard love child of Marduk and Archie! But still I stay...it doesn't phase me .... and I thought you were British and made of sterner stuff.

It's not so much the Boo Hoo No-one agrees with me thing, as everything else in my life being moderate to moderate plus stressful at present, and then going online and having my blood pressure do that thing that happens in Tom & Jerry cartoons which results in a steam whistle popping out the top of Tom's head. I just don't want to end up in the Camberwell branch of McDonalds with a firearm ranting and raving at passers by about Tlatilco phase pottery before turning the gun on them and then myself.

Anyway, the good news is that I've found more to be annoyed about here. Expanding on what I wrote earlier (and as kindly pointed out by another forum member) I'd go so far as to say there's a subtle racism at work in claims of this sort (or often can be) in so much that, with the absolute lack of any evidence other than the coincidental resemblance between disparate cultural artefacts, this seems only an update of what Erich von Daniken did. For those with short memories, Erich von Daniken's reputation was built upon the observation: "Look at these cute little jungle bunnies (*1); they can't possibly have built that ruddy great edifice over there; therefore it MUST have been Martians." ...and this just seems like a slightly less implausible version of the same model (when your theory is praised as 'less implausible than Martians' that really isn't much of a compliment). It's this idea that group X, Y, Z, or whoever can't possibly have done such and such (I mean - fuck - those Aztecs could barely tie their own shoelaces) so it must have been Martians/Whitey(*2)/Someone else.

Personally (and I think Ish might agree here), I think it's probably helpful and realistic to approach most "primitive" cultures with the view that, despite never having invented the television set, they might actually be of comparable intelligence to ourselves on an individual level, and unfamiliar customs should not necessarily be seen as indicative of stupidity: otherwise we end up demoting them to primitive status in a very literal biological sense, and thus find ourselves sharing more in common with Adolf Hitler than is probably healthy.

Great dress sense sure, but let's leave it at that eh?

The idea that such and such a culture needed a few pointers from elsewhere, particularly when there's zero evidence of such an assumption, often suggests a subtle prejudice against said culture and a subtle bias in favour of the supposed 'great educators' - note also how the cultures in "need" of retroactive patronage are rarely those with a whole wealth of surviving records. Such cultures often serve as a blank slate upon which an agenda may be superimposed, which is possibly why there are few people who believe that 17th century France learnt everything from ancient Egypt (after all, an incompatible timescale doesn't usually make a lot of difference in these arguments).

Whew. I'm done.

*1: Apologies for use of racist term but this is no less than the subtext of Von Daniken's deeply-flawed logic.

*2: Let's not forget the historical cranks who popped up from time to time to pronounce every new archaeological discovery as "obviously" the work of white men in ancient times. In fact let's not forget that this sort of crap still gets bums on seats in certain quarters.

[War Arrow]

Whadda mean, used to?

Actually WA I would doubt that major cultural changes like suddenly start building pyramids 'cos some stranger from across the seas built them would actually happen, but that does not preclude contact between east and west.
In NA the Indians didn't suddenly start building houses in brick 'cos the white man did and the whites didn't suddenly start erecting Wigwams.
Initial contact was for trade. We got baccy and they got fire arms!

Absolutely right, Dig, and yet the logic of that argument is apparently too complicated for at least some authors.

Dammit. Here I go again.

I don't necessarily believe that east/west contact did happen, but I absolutely agree that it could have done and, as I've said before, I'd probably be more surprised by the idea that absolutely no transoceanic contact ever occurred. I've read several Thor Heyerdahl books and I'm convinced he may have been the hardest man who ever lived - read Fatu Hiva and tell me if you'd spill that man's pint with alacrity.

Possible spread of influence is another matter though...

Like I say, it's just lazy ideas that bug me. I'm not exactly Graham Hancock's number one fan, but fair play to the man - he's succeeded in raising my eyebrows a few times and I've even seen him admit to not understanding some of his own (genuinely puzzling) underwater discoveries.

[Ishtar]

That's exactly why I used to get so angry about the Aryan Invasion Theory. I say used to .. because when I first began it about five years ago, no-one believed me and couldn't see that the whole argument was predicated on racism. “Those little brown buggers in India with bones through their noses - how could they have written such sublime poetry and known more about the universe than us superior white people,” was the sub-text of the whole theory.

But I don't have to get angry anymore because the argument has turned, and even on Wiki now, they won't have any truck with it.

Here's another example. I was among those at the first ever Glastonbury. I was six months pregnant at the time, but it was like ‘no room at the inn’. The town was aghast at all the long-haired weirdoes who'd descended on the place, and all the shops and cafes had little signs in the windows saying 'no hippies allowed'. They were even turning me and my husband away and I had quite a bump by then.

Fast forward 35 years and now my daughter and grand daughter are going to Glastonbury. So I had a look on the Glastonbury website, and what did I find? A small piece on what an attractive town Glastonbury is, and so why not drop by? - either before or after the festival, as it’s usually very quiet during festival time and so you would be warmly welcomed. In other words, the local shop keepers and café owners want to cash- in too.

“Ha!” I thought,”How the world turns”. And it does WA. It just depends whether you want to be a part of what makes the world turn, or would rather just forget the whole thing and put your feet up and listen to your rap CDs and sod everyone else. If you are part of the change, it gets a bit uncomfortable sometimes … but there’s no point whining about it.

[Cognito]

Well put, W/A. Actually, I'm still blown away by the creation of maize 10,000 years ago since the plant's genetics are incredibly complicated. Some frikken genius or geniuses created something in 8,000bce Mexico that required skill and smarts - all without current technology - and don't tell me Europeans did it!

We owe much to native americans: tomatoes, potatoes, chili peppers, green and dried beans, pecans, cashews, peanuts, squash, avocados, and every woman's favourite - chocolate. And where would basketball or futbol be without rubber? While gold and silver allowed Europe to finance its way past Islam in the 17th century, corn is now the basis for the food pyramid for farm animals all around the world.

All of the above was accomplished by native americans without the benefit of diffused technology. For me, I can't imagine a life without avocados.

[Cognito]

Beagle is still convinced that I'm some bastard love child of Marduk and Archie!

Min, heads up. You must have a Smilie for this, right?

[Digit]

If you're trying to give up the weed WA and aren't using nicotine patches I can recommend them.
I gave up a fifty a day habit twenty years ago, the hard way! My wife used the patches and cracked it in a fortnight without the aggro.

[Forum Monk]

If you're trying to give up the weed WA and aren't using nicotine patches I can recommend them.
I gave up a fifty a day habit twenty years ago, the hard way! My wife used the patches and cracked it in a fortnight without the aggro.

I went cold turkey and broke it in a week but there were certain situations (like bars) I stayed out of for over a year until I was sure I had overcome the urge to smoke.

[Minimalist]

Beagle is still convinced that I'm some bastard love child of Marduk and Archie!

Min, heads up. You must have a Smilie for this, right?

That idea seems a tad complex for a smilie. Maybe something on Youtube?

[Forum Monk]

WA and all,
I understand and believe, the basic intelligence of humans has probably not changed all that much through the millenia and I have stated before on this board, the birth of geniuses probably occured at the same rate as today.

Inspite of the obvious potential for flame wars by mentioning this, it is interesting to note that in the story of the biblical Tower of Babel, the comment is made my God that "these people could accomplish whatever they set their minds to do". In the bible story this was something to be feared or at least slowed down until the "right" period of human history.

But one must wonder. The exponential climb in achievement we see today seems late in coming. If we were so smart 10,000 years ago, why are we only now discovering how the universe works? Or does the leap in knowledge require a lot of prerequisite conditions that emerge over millenia? And if that is the case, when one sees remarkable technology in ancient cultures, one must wonder, how did it emerge in isolation and why did it not flourish?

[War Arrow]

If you're trying to give up the weed WA and aren't using nicotine patches I can recommend them.
I gave up a fifty a day habit twenty years ago, the hard way! My wife used the patches and cracked it in a fortnight without the aggro.

Weirdly enough my average is about 3 skinny 'have you been in prison or summink, mate?' size roll-ups a day. You would think with that as an average, it'd be easy to give up, but no. I can do one a day, or none a day without too much trouble, but three days and... well, you know the picture. Consequently both gum and patches are much stronger than I'm used to smoking and make me feel quite ill. I'll keep trying though.

By the way, Ish - I usually listen to my rap CDs at work, and often as a sort of audio pressure valve; feet, putting up thereof doesn't really come into it. Er... I'm afraid the rest of your 'being part of what makes the world turn' suggestion may require explanation.

[War Arrow]

WA and all,
I understand and believe, the basic intelligence of humans has probably not changed all that much through the millenia and I have stated before on this board, the birth of geniuses probably occured at the same rate as today.

Inspite of the obvious potential for flame wars by mentioning this, it is interesting to note that in the story of the biblical Tower of Babel, the comment is made my God that "these people could accomplish whatever they set their minds to do". In the bible story this was something to be feared or at least slowed down until the "right" period of human history.

But one must wonder. The exponential climb in achievement we see today seems late in coming. If we were so smart 10,000 years ago, why are we only now discovering how the universe works? Or does the leap in knowledge require a lot of prerequisite conditions that emerge over millenia? And if that is the case, when one sees remarkable technology in ancient cultures, one must wonder, how did it emerge in isolation and why did it not flourish?

Intriging Biblical reference there. Worth remembering.

Why only now?
Maybe greatly increased size of global population (so if genius ratio is 1 in 20 or whatever, there's now more of them). Or maybe different social conditions, a few more opportunities for keen thinkers to flourish?

[rich]

FM:

They had their own knowledge of the workings of the universe - it worked for them. And who's to say we are right and they were wrong? Or that we know any more than what they did? Just they gleamed what they needed or wanted and we gleam what we need or want. I'm sure even they had their own versions of the club or politcally controlled themes to deal with too. Politics, religion, whatever are all very strong limiters and can be hard to overcome while you deal with every day life. Sometimes the truth of the universe is merely staying alive for as long as you can.
In my view point, any group that survives for any period of time has done an amazing accomplishment. And afterall, their cultures lasted longer than ours when you consider ours are only add-ons to theirs. In a sense our culture today is merely a corruption of theirs.