http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 00-03.html
Africa/Egyptian presence and jewelry in Mesoamerica?
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Africa/Egyptian presence and jewelry in Mesoamerica?
Marc Washington
Or even more to the point, which cultural features are likely to have originated in Africa and which may have been brought back to Africa after being learned in Mesoamerica?
If our friends the boats really did carry folks back and forth across the Atlantic during that time period then it seems likely that a cultural exchange would have taken place rather than a one way transfer.
If our friends the boats really did carry folks back and forth across the Atlantic during that time period then it seems likely that a cultural exchange would have taken place rather than a one way transfer.
Because one thing from one place looking a bit like something from somewhere else proves nothing. I can't see anything in Mesoamerican culture which requires ancient contact as an explanation, and hooped ear-rings: big deal.
Instead of pointing out all the supposedly African faces in Mesoamerican culture, how about actually having a look at Mesoamerican culture itself (radical suggestion I know) and seeing if maybe, just maybe, what you see might just as well reflect that culture instead of one several thousand miles away with which it may or may not (and probably not) have had contact.
Is it really so painful to actually credit a cultural group for their own innovations instead of claiming four blokes in a boat from somewhere else somehow persuaded an entire country to build pyramids etc etc etc?
Are these cultures we claim to be interested in really so deadly dull that we cannot appreciate them or learn anything from them without spicing it all up with a load of added extraneous baggage that doesn't prove anything and is happily and conveniently beyond the scope of investigation?
Sorry guys - I know a lot of you are into this and I'm in the minority, but I really think some of you might be missing out by focussing all your energies on paper tigers (if that's the phrase)... I don't want to insult anyone, but at the same time it's getting very frustrating hanging around in a forum where everyone just seems to agree with everything and anything.
Maybe this really ain't the place for me.
doesn't seem
Instead of pointing out all the supposedly African faces in Mesoamerican culture, how about actually having a look at Mesoamerican culture itself (radical suggestion I know) and seeing if maybe, just maybe, what you see might just as well reflect that culture instead of one several thousand miles away with which it may or may not (and probably not) have had contact.
Is it really so painful to actually credit a cultural group for their own innovations instead of claiming four blokes in a boat from somewhere else somehow persuaded an entire country to build pyramids etc etc etc?
Are these cultures we claim to be interested in really so deadly dull that we cannot appreciate them or learn anything from them without spicing it all up with a load of added extraneous baggage that doesn't prove anything and is happily and conveniently beyond the scope of investigation?
Sorry guys - I know a lot of you are into this and I'm in the minority, but I really think some of you might be missing out by focussing all your energies on paper tigers (if that's the phrase)... I don't want to insult anyone, but at the same time it's getting very frustrating hanging around in a forum where everyone just seems to agree with everything and anything.
Maybe this really ain't the place for me.
doesn't seem
Rubbish!Maybe this really ain't the place for me.
I hold a different view to yours Lawrence, but the fact that I'm replying shows that I value your viewpoint sufficiently to read your post, so don't talk about leaving.
I fully accept your view that Meso America was capable of developement in isolation, it happend in Oz after all, but here is where I take a different view.
Here in Europe we have an established culture involving mythological beings presumable created from our imagination. Fairies, Elves, Ogres etc, but imagining Negroid features is, I think, stretching coincidence too far for me.
It's much simpler to assume that the carvings are from life.
I'm old enough to remember when Negroid fetures in this country was such a rare occurence that we kids followed them all over the place just to look at them, and what more natural than to record a rare event?
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Forum Monk
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- Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:37 pm
- Location: USA
I understand what you're saying WA. It has frustrated me many times.War Arrow wrote:Sorry guys - I know a lot of you are into this and I'm in the minority, but I really think some of you might be missing out by focussing all your energies on paper tigers (if that's the phrase)... I don't want to insult anyone, but at the same time it's getting very frustrating hanging around in a forum where everyone just seems to agree with everything and anything.
WA, please don't do this again.War Arrow wrote:
Maybe this really ain't the place for me.
doesn't seem
Every opinion here is valid, and I always read and enjoy (and learn from) yours, whether I agree with it or not.
So please don't go....
Baby please don't go
You know I love you so
Baby please don't go
Down to New Orleans
Cos I love ya so
Baby please don't go!
Ishtar of Ishtar's Gate and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
Pyramids
It would be just as easy to say that the idea of pyramids diffused from the Caral area to Egypt, but there's no evidence of that either. However, I disagree with W/A on the four guys in a boat comment - I think it was three: Larry, Curly and Moe.
Natural selection favors the paranoid
That is what i was trying to say, you're just better with words than i am.War Arrow wrote:Instead of pointing out all the supposedly African faces in Mesoamerican culture, how about actually having a look at Mesoamerican culture itself (radical suggestion I know) and seeing if maybe, just maybe, what you see might just as well reflect that culture instead of one several thousand miles away with which it may or may not (and probably not) have had contact.
Is it really so painful to actually credit a cultural group for their own innovations instead of claiming four blokes in a boat from somewhere else somehow persuaded an entire country to build pyramids etc etc etc?
If there was a cultural exchange, due to ocean travel, it must have been two way. Please correct me if i am wrong, but sometimes you seem a little on the defensive side about Mesoamerican cultures. Maybe that is because so many theories dismiss Mesoamerican achievements, but i think most of us on this board are above such cultural discrimination.
It is entirely possible that Mesoamerica developed in complete isolation, but i just don't think that any culture can make a claim that strong.
My original post was meant to suggest that if anyone crossed the Atlantic (From either side) bringing cultural ideas, they probably discovered some new ones to bring home. Finding evidence of that would be exciting.
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Forum Monk
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:37 pm
- Location: USA
Let's face it, the general concensus among scholars today would have the people of the americas arriving from somewhere else and in the not too distant past (relatively).
Mesoamericans did not evolve from lower forms and spontaneoulsy develop culture. They brought it with them from where ever they came. It should not be surprising there are similarities between their art and artifacts and those of other peoples on the otherside of the world.
In other threads on this forum we've discussed the similarity in cosmologies and mythologies of cultures around the world. It is more evidence of a common ancestry.
WA, do you think by me saying that, it diminishes their accomplishments or implies they had to be taught how make jewelry from african jewelers?
Sometime ago, I was struck by the similarity between Olmec and Chinese art and suggested that the Olmec may have originated in China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Olme ... at_Met.jpg
As time goes on, obviously a high degree of divergence from the original culture will arise. But certain characteristics in their approach to the world and expression will remain rooted in their home culture. (you can take the olmec out of china but you can't take china out of the olmec - that sort of thing)
Mesoamericans did not evolve from lower forms and spontaneoulsy develop culture. They brought it with them from where ever they came. It should not be surprising there are similarities between their art and artifacts and those of other peoples on the otherside of the world.
In other threads on this forum we've discussed the similarity in cosmologies and mythologies of cultures around the world. It is more evidence of a common ancestry.
WA, do you think by me saying that, it diminishes their accomplishments or implies they had to be taught how make jewelry from african jewelers?
Sometime ago, I was struck by the similarity between Olmec and Chinese art and suggested that the Olmec may have originated in China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Olme ... at_Met.jpg
As time goes on, obviously a high degree of divergence from the original culture will arise. But certain characteristics in their approach to the world and expression will remain rooted in their home culture. (you can take the olmec out of china but you can't take china out of the olmec - that sort of thing)
I violently disagree!War Arrow wrote: I don't want to insult anyone, but at the same time it's getting very frustrating hanging around in a forum where everyone just seems to agree with everything and anything.
War Arrow, you and I often disagree. As do myself and Beagle, and Forum Monk and I often have long running but fascinating (well, to us, anyway) disputes about this that or the other. Once, Digit and I went on like that for a whole day until he handed over the baton to Min when he came on around 5.00 pm - and I told them both to bog off and went down the pub.
Ishtar of Ishtar's Gate and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.