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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:02 pm
by Ishtar
Thanks for the article, Cogs. Most interesting.

I'm going to put some more stuff up on the Boat thread about the Neanderthals and cognition. But I'd be interested to hear your views after you've seen the Nat Geo doc tonight, and whether it adds anything to that article (my experience is that usually, tele journos are behind print ones.)

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:57 pm
by kbs2244
Cog:
Your idea begs the question
"Why were there more of one than the other?"
They would seem to have equal opportunity.

Population

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:44 am
by Cognito
KB, you are correct. A rapidly expanding population of HSS versus HN worldwide post-50,000bce is the symptom.
Determine the cause and write a book. :?

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:18 am
by Ishtar
Maybe I'm stating the obvious ... but could it be because HSS reached sexual maturity faster than HNN, thus he could build his populations faster?

On top of that, the following article (pub. Nat Geo: 8 Sept 2008) suggests that HSS's smaller brain was less energy-intensive, which gives an evolutionary advantage in difficult conditions.

http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/blo ... rthal.html

What, according to the researchers, are some of the most relevant findings of the paper?

Neanderthals were different from modern humans already at birth. This implies that most species-specific characteristics such as the Neanderthal's heavy brow developed during embryonic and fetal development, rather than after birth.

Brain size at birth, a typically human feature, appears to be an old evolutionary achievement, inherited from a common ancestor.

Neanderthal women had to face similar child-bearing problems as modern human women. The female Neanderthal pelvis was wider than in modern human females--but the head size of Neanderthal newborns was also larger.

After birth, Neanderthal brains grew faster than those of modern humans, but they had to reach larger adult brain sizes. Faster growth did not imply earlier completion of growth, the scientists said.

Growing large brains at a fast pace is an energy-intensive process, which can only be sustained by large, late-maturing mothers."Compared to modern humans, it thus appears that Neanderthals had somewhat slower life histories," the researchers said. This meant they reached sexual maturity later and may have lived longer.

The slow life history of the Neanderthals might be a feature shared with Ice Age populations of Homo sapiens. These early modern humans had larger adult brain sizes than people today.

"Brain size reduction in modern humans over the past 40,000 years is well-documented," the researchers said in their notes. "We hypothesize that growing smaller but similarly efficient brains might have represented an energetic advantage, which paid off in faster reproductive rates in modern [humans] compared to Pleistocene people. Reducing brain size thus might represent an evolutionary advantage."

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:19 am
by kbs2244
So:
We are dumber and sexier;
Therefore we win?

I don’t know if I like the implications of that argument!

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:22 am
by Ishtar
kbs2244 wrote:So:
We are dumber and sexier;
Therefore we win?

I don’t know if I like the implications of that argument!
Well.. you may have a point. The archetypal woman most desired by men used to be Marilyn Monroe (who wasn't as dumb as she played up to be, but she knew that she could get her way over men with that dumb baby voice!)

So that must be it .. men prefer dumb and sexy, and that's explains the gracialisation and juvenilesation theory favoured by Bednarik. :D



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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:45 am
by Minimalist
"Brain size reduction in modern humans over the past 40,000 years is well-documented," the researchers said in their notes. "We hypothesize that growing smaller but similarly efficient brains might have represented an energetic advantage, which paid off in faster reproductive rates in modern [humans] compared to Pleistocene people. Reducing brain size thus might represent an evolutionary advantage."


Just a random thought. I've seen it suggested that primitive HG populations actually had better nutrition than early farmers so it might be a reaction to poor diet.

Stupidity Rules

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:31 pm
by Cognito
We are dumber and sexier;
Therefore we win?
I like the idea of HSS being dumber and more sex-crazed. However, it may simply come down to HSS developing a midwife cultural tradition whereas HN did not.
Ish, you might know: Did shamans double as midwives? :shock:

Being a female, you should know where I'm going with this. 8)

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:56 pm
by Ishtar
Well, they help to despatch folk (carry them to the realms of the dead) so it would only be right for shamans to help hatch them too.

Professor of Anthropology Barbara Tedlock has done some good research on women shamans as midwives and here's a review of her book about the role of the female shaman, which discusses it.

http://shamansdrum.org/Pages/ReviewsWom ... sBody.html

Barbara Tedlock’s marvelous new book, The Woman in the Shaman’s Body: Reclaiming the Feminine in Religion and Medicine, documents how, “despite the proof of language and artifacts, despite pictorial representations, ethnographic narratives, and eyewitness accounts, the importance—no, the primacy—of women in shamanic traditions has been obscured and denied.” By reviewing archaeological and legendary evidence indicating that women have held prominent positions as shamans dating back as far as the Stone Age, and by collecting anthropological research showing that women shamans remain active today in many parts of the world, Tedlock challenges the prevailing anthropological view that shamanism has been primarily a male vocation, closely associated with hunting activities.

Citing historic accounts recorded in the twelfth-century shamanic Chinese epic Wubuxiben Mama and the thirteenth-century Manchurian legend The Tale of the Nishan Shamaness, Tedlock argues that women shamans have long held high-ranking positions in North Asia.

Indeed, she points out that some of the oldest Neolithic graves excavated in Siberia have yielded skeletons of women shamans, who were buried with carved mammoth-bone figurines noticeably similar to the bird-headed figures depicted in nearby rock paintings and on drums used by Siberian shamans today.

As further evidence of the continuity of female shamans in Siberia, Tedlock notes that many contemporary Mongolian shamans—both males and females—trace their lineage back through their mothers’ clans for nine or more generations. She reports that, while conducting field research in Mongolia, she observed a shamanic seance performed by a contemporary Siberian shaman woman, Bayar Odun, who is a tenth-generation shaman. Significantly, Bayar hung a special bag—described as a “sacred childbirth bag”—on her wall for use during her healing rituals, highlighting her work as a midwife, and the bag reportedly contained the “deified souls of deceased shamans in Bayar’s lineage, who served as her protective spirits.”

... Tedlock also challenges the denigratory theory proposed by some male archaeologists that Paleolithic female figurines—such as the Venus of Willendorf and the Venus of Lespugue—were “fertility symbols, erotic amulets, or sexual playthings” made and used by men. Based on the fact that many of the Paleolithic female figurines are anatomically correct—“when considered from the perspective of a woman looking down upon her own naked body” —Tedlock proposes that it is more likely that they “might have belonged to women shamans whose specialized skills included midwifery.”

As she later explains, the habitual failure of many anthropologists to recognize the importance of women in shamanic vocations can be explained partly by the reality that “women shamans are almost always midwives,” and “midwifery has rarely been acknowledged as a shaman’s art.” This misguided bias has effectively obscured a major portion of women’s shamanic work from the anthropological record.

Midwives

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:10 pm
by Cognito
As she later explains, the habitual failure of many anthropologists to recognize the importance of women in shamanic vocations can be explained partly by the reality that “women shamans are almost always midwives,” and “midwifery has rarely been acknowledged as a shaman’s art.” This misguided bias has effectively obscured a major portion of women’s shamanic work from the anthropological record.
That could explain the difference between HN and HSS at about 50,000 years ago - assuming that women gained entry to shamanism at that time.

Most people are familiar with the maternal aspect of Pleistocene culture and its survival in the Altay region to modern times. While female shamans became common in HSS culture and managed birth, shamanism likely remained closed to women in HN society.

The ritual of birth as an important tribal activity with a resulting improvement in birthing rates could have made the difference between 15,000 HSS and 1 million HSS over 30,000 years. Later on, by the early Holocene, agriculture was regimented for the masses by kings and priests and humanity was off to the population races.

Midwives 8)

Re: Midwives

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:01 pm
by Ishtar
Cognito wrote:
Midwives 8)
It's an interesting theory, Cogs ... but I'm wondering why you are sure that Neanderthals also didn't have midwives?

Anthropologist Karen Rosenberg has found that earlier on, 3 - 5 million years ago, the australopithecine mothers (like Lucy) would have had easier births than we do today, because the baby didn't have to twist his head to get through successfully.

http://www.udel.edu/PR/Messenger/93/3/28.html

This change in the structure of the birth canal occurred with HN and HSS. I guess it must be the first challenge the human being faces and a real initiative test - how to get round the birth canal, as there's a kink in it, so you cannot come straight out. It's a bit like trying to fit a large sofa through your front door and then sharp right into your living room. And in HN's case, the head would have been even bigger. It's quite tough, really. You are not yet one day old, and you have to figure out how to negotiate this bend.

So given that both HNs and HSSs had (and have) the bend, they would both have benefitted from skilled midwives who had had the lore passed down to them orally over generations - when to push, when to induce, when to massage, how to tie off the cord without creating an infection etc. But perhaps you know something about this that I don't. So that's why I'm wondering if there any evidence that HN didn't have midwives?



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birthing

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:32 pm
by kbs2244
The whole birthing thing has been shielded from the males in most societies until around the 1800’s in the western world when medicine became a male only profession.
It has undergone a tremendous swing back to female orientation in the last few decades.
Is there any record of the earliest birthing stool?
As I understand it, it seems to be a tremendous assistance in what Ish described as our first test of survival.
It seems to have evolved into the “stirrups” of today.
(The whole “hole in the heart” thing just amazes me.)

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:24 pm
by john
All -

The Ainu midwife/shaman.

There are some very interesting connections here,

Particularly regarding saltwater boats and bears.

http://www.cs.org/publications/Csq/csq- ... fm?id=1667

hoka hey

john

Matriarchal societies

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:17 am
by Ishtar
I would also like to pick up on this.
Cognito wrote: That could explain the difference between HN and HSS at about 50,000 years ago - assuming that women gained entry to shamanism at that time.
With respect, Cogs, this may be a misunderstanding about the power of women in society, going back in time. It is widely thought (weasel words, I know) that ancient tribes were matrilineal in structure and that the patrilineal model is only a relatively recent development (last 5,000 years or so).

This would make sense given the fact that mitochondrial DNA is normally inherited exclusively from one's mother. OK, they didn't have the science of geneaology then as we know it ... but they knew a lot more about the natural world than we often credit them with, by other means.

Indo-European mythology throughout the world has the same common motif about royal inheritance. The King only gained his power from the female he married, the Queen. When a king died, his sister-in-law's son would inherit, not his own.

In later times, during the transition to a patriarchal model, this was replaced by the maithuna. The maithuna would take place during the king's coronation ceremony when he would have sex with a hierodule (sacred prostitute), thus symbolising receiving the sacred female power to rule.

Even as late as Tudor times, Henry VIII had to marry the widow of the previous king, his dead brother. Then he spent the rest of his reign in breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church and establishing the Church of England, just so's he could get out of his marriage vows.

This is from Wiki about matrilineality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilinea ... cal_debate
This is illustrated in the Homeric myths where all the noblest men in Greece vie for the hand of Helen (and the throne of Sparta), as well as the Oedipian cycle where Oedipus weds the widow of the late king at the same time he assumes the Theban kingship.

This trend is also evident in many Celtic myths, such as the (Welsh) mabinogi of Culhwch and Olwen, or the (Irish) Ulster Cycle, most notably the key facts to the Cúchulainn cycle that Cúchulainn gets his final secret training with a warrior woman, Scáthach, and becomes lover to both her and her daughter; and the root of the Táin Bó Cuailnge, that while Ailill may wear the crown of Connacht, it is his wife Medb who is the real power, and she needs to affirm her equality to her husband by owning chattels as great as he does.

A number of other Breton stories also illustrate the motif, and even the Arthurian legends have been interpreted in this light by some. For example the Round Table, both as a piece of furniture and as concerns the majority of knights belonging to it, was a gift to Arthur from Guinevere's father Leodegrance...

Arguments have also been made that matrilineality lay behind various fairy tale plots.

For instance, the widespread motif of a father who wishes to marry his own daughter -- appearing in such tales as Allerleirauh, Donkeyskin, The King who Wished to Marry His Daughter, and The She-Bear -- has been explained as his wish to prolong his reign, which he would lose after his wife's death to his son-in-law.[11] More mildly, the hostility of kings to their daughter's suitors is explained by hostility to their successors. In such tales as The Three May Peaches, Jesper Who Herded the Hares, or The Griffin, kings set dangerous tasks in an attempt to prevent the marriage.[12]

Fairy tales with hostility between the mother-in-law and the heroine -- such as Mary's Child, The Six Swans, and Perrault's Sleeping Beauty -- have been held to reflect a transition between a matrilineal society, where a man's loyalty was to his mother, and a patrilineal one, where his wife could claim it, although this is predicated on such a transition being a normal development in societies.[13]
So for women 'to gain entry into shamanism' in ancient times could possibly be a misnomer. It is even possible that women were the first shamans ... we cannot rule that out. Certainly, there were female Vedic rishis (shamans) who composed some of the Rig-vedic hymns, which themselves praise an over-riding Trinity of goddesses.

The first life-death-rebirth deity (c 3,000 BC) is Inanna/Ishtar, a Sumerian princess. It is only after Ishtar that practically all of the life-death-rebirth deities became males.

It could even be the case that the women let the men into shamanism, and then the men took over ... just as they did with midwifery.

Interestingly, in John's article about the Ainu, we find this:

http://www.cs.org/publications/Csq/csq- ... fm?id=1667
Problems in the present-day Ainu culture derive from internal conflicts, fragmentation of traditional knowledge, stereotyping, and gender inequity. It is widely believed today among the Hokkaidô Ainu that it is inappropriate for Ainu women to pray to kamuy; if they wish to do so they must ask permission from men.

A historical study (Tanaka 2000) indicates that the present male-dominated ceremonial and ritual practices of the Hokkaidô Ainu likely resulted from contact with the feudal Japanese, who came under the influence of Confucianism and its patrilineal system during the Edo period (1603-1867).....



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Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:40 am
by kbs2244
I can buy into the idea of women being the first shamans based on the whole mid-wife thing.
There is something mysterious about two people going into a tent and three coming out.
Even after watching untold number of kittens and puppies being born and helping puzzled cows give birth it wasn’t until my forth that I attended a human birth.
We do view ourselves as different from the animals.