Prehistory is about to change! (Politics)

[Digit]

It's time the EU threw its weight around a bit more.

That is the best reason I have heard for some time as to why I want no part of it!!!!!!
Security, prosperity, my foot. POWER!!!

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

It's time the EU threw its weight around a bit more.

That is the best reason I have heard for some time as to why I want no part of it!!!!!!
Security, prosperity, my foot. POWER!!!

No, Roy, real Europeans are past that imperial/colonial mindset. When you're BIIIG and RICH and have a GOOD LIFE, like the EU (citizens) do(es), then you have a great responsibility towards those that don't! Namely: the rest of the world. And you're beholden to apply the power you have to try and better their situation. If you don't you're egotistic and small-minded in the extreme. The ante-room to nationalism and fascism.

[Digit]

then you have a great responsibility towards those that don't!

Our Victorian forebears named it 'the white man's burden', the requirement to bring to the pooor benighted natives all the joys of 'civilisation!'
So why is a Federal Europe required for your missionary zeal? Nation states can manage that on their own?

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

So why is a Federal Europe required for your missionary zeal? Nation states can manage that on their own?

Political, economical, and (dare I say it) military cooperation (would) make(s) that 10 times more effective than the sum of the (nationally isolated) parts, Roy. Much better for them, and much better for us. I.o.w. simply plain sensible, making nationally isolated efforts look decidedly small-minded, NIH tight-arsed, and very stupid.

[Digit]

I noticed today that the EU auditors signed off the EU books yeaterday for only the second time in 15 yrs, due to masive corruption! Not a a good record.
Let us now examine how the EU has helped the third world.
According to the UN, (you can check it yourself) Poaching of third world medical staff has destroyed medi care in some African countries. In Malawi more than half of all qualified medical people now work in the EU, it is even higher from Zimbabwe.
Due to the EU's CAP surplus food stuffs are either destroyed, (as in the film of 25 thousand litres of milk being poured down the drain) or is 'Dumped' on third world countries at prices that under cut their own production. Farmers are going broke.
Due to the CFP we kill edible fish then dump them back in the sea, in the name protecting stocks! Your country, amongst others, now has contracts with corrupt African governments and vacuums up vast quanities of fish and destroy the local fishermen's livelyhood.
Their only defence is to cross the Med and enter the EU as illegal immigrants.
Due to the EU's law restricting the use of landfill sites toxic waste is now shipped to places like China and Nigeria, where it is now causing birth defects.
The UN Sec Gen even publicly rebuked T Blair for boasting how many third world doctors he had poached.
I don't ask you to take my word for what I say, get you head out of the sand and check!
So tell me again how your zeal for the EU helps those less fortunate than us.
An why does the EU need military strength, haven't you Europeans had enough of fighting each other?

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Like I said: decidedly small-minded, NIH tight-arsed, and very stupid.

[Minimalist]

I can't believe you two are arguing about the EU.

It never generates that much enthusiasm!

[Digit]

Like I said: decidedly small-minded, NIH tight-arsed, and very stupid.

Or in other words you are unable to either refute or deny what I have stated!
And I'm surprised that you consider the destruction of part of Africa's fishing industry as 'small minded.'
Additional for you. Check out the EU's contributions to the PLO and what is happening to the Bush men and the support that Mrs Kinnock has given to the policy. Genocide it has been called. Up the EU!
Min, we are living in an authoritarian state here, you heard what RS wants, to be able to throw his state's weight around, is that a good reason for federalism.
It took the USA to get these 'Europeans' out of the shit they got themselves into twice in the last century, and in case you haven't heard those shits in France regularly desecrate the graves of our countrymen who died trying to free them!
And France is one of the most anti US countries around.

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

And France is one of the most anti US countries around.

Really?
Then pray explain to me what McDonald's is doing on the Champs Elysées?

"France is one of the most anti US countries around" is an absurd statement! Totally ridiculous! If France is, then what vocabulary do you have left to describe Iran, Somalia, North-Korea, Russia, Myanmar, Zimbabwe, Palestine, Lebanon, Venezuela, Honduras, Cuba, etc. etc...?

[Digit]

Then pray explain to me what McDonald's is doing on the Champs Elysées?

Making money! And big Macs are available in Beijing, so?
The fact that those countries you list are more so does not invalidate my statement.
French officials have stated on a number of occasions that the main objective of the EU is to counter US dominance. Yes or no?
As you wish to see the EU throw its weight around that may well be to your liking, but I have noticed that they have yet to suggest how they would accomplish this, nor why they believe it would be necessary or even desirable.
Did you bother to check any of the points I made earlier by the way? If so, how do you feel about them?
If the EU is so wonderful how is it that they ignored your country's vote to halt further federalisation, an act described by officials as, 'a minor difficulty!' In fact, how about explaining to me how we are all better off as citizens of the EU rather than of nation states?
In fact, how about countering just one of my objections, as so far you have not even attempted such. (By the way, I've lot's more!)

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

The fact that those countries you list are more so does not invalidate my statement.

It doesn't? So those countries are "more most anti-US" than France?

In fact, how about explaining to me how we are all better off as citizens of the EU rather than of nation states?

I don't think so, because I already did that, and that apparently was a waste of effort, as you choose to completely ignore what I said on the subject. So that concludes this 'debate' for me.

[Digit]

Good! Now that just leaves boats!
And bye the way, I haven't ignored it, I noted with interest that you believed that one of the advantages would be the ability to throw our weight around. The action of bullies!

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

And bye the way

Good plan.

I haven't ignored it, I noted with interest that you believed that one of the advantages would be the ability to throw our weight around. The action of bullies!

No, that is a twisting of my words: I said (not: 'believe') that the EU should throw its weight around more. I.o.w.: it doesn't do that now.

And since you seem to have a problem with comprehensive reading, a very short memory, and correctly quoting others I'll literally repeat the pertaining text for your, and others', benefit:

Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:48 am

what are the advantages of a Federal Europe over 26 nation states?

Enduring peace and prosperity.

Do you realise that the past 60 years have been the (relatively) quietest, most prosperous, and war-free 60 year period in millennia of European history? Thanks to NATO and the EU (and predecessors). I.o.w. thanks to working together, instead of against eachother. Thanks to cooperation instead of competition!

The EU is a magnificent, unprecedented political experiment in the history of mankind: we're trying to develop a superpower 'state' by voluntarily (i.o.w. without war) uniting countries and peoples to improve living conditions for all. And so far, so good. The results exceed our wildest dreams. And the prospects are good. This experiment will – I hope – be on-going for centuries to come. Continually finetuning.

And before you shout "Bosnia" again without thinking: Bosnia was not and is not a part of the EU! If it had been, history would probably be very different. And they know it! As do the Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Albanians, Kosovans, Montenegrins, Macedonians, etc. etc. Why else do you think they are doing their damnedest to join? Even the proud, and fiercely independent Turks want in. For exactly the same reasons.

Now, I advise you to read the above again and let it sink in before you say something totally unrelated again.

[Digit]

I read it the first time, and it is full of assumptions.
One, that peace in Europe has only been assured through the existance of the EU, dicounting Bosnia of course.
Have you any evidence to support that.
Two, enduring prosperity, are suggesting that we would all be worse off without the EU? If so, evidence please.
The budget for the EU next year is estimated at 136.6 Billion Euros. Split evenly bewteen the members you would be refunded just over 10 percent of your GDP. (Figures from the World Bank and the EU.) Just think what that would do for health care for example.
Now how about you answering the charges I have made against the EU?
And anyway, you were dropping out of the debate.

Bosnia was not and is not a part of the EU! If it had been,

Granted.
But you quoted, check, European history, not EU history and Bosnis IS part of Europe.

It's time the EU threw its weight around a bit more.

From your earlier post, sounds like promotion to me. And I don't like the idea of any nation bullying another.

As do the Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Albanians, Kosovans, Montenegrins, Macedonians, etc. etc. Why else do you think they are doing their damnedest to join? Even the proud, and fiercely independent Turks want in. For exactly the same reasons.

And the idea of EU subsidies from the western nations wouldn't be a part of it by any chance would it?
If this EU wonder state is such a great idea RS, why, when given the opportunity to vote on federalisation, did your fellow countrymen, along with the French and others, comprehensively reject it? Perhaps not all your countrymen are as enthusiastic as your self?
Further, what is your opinion of the UN's complaints that I suggested you check, and how do they fit in with your idea that the EU benefits third world countries?

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

There's a time and a place for everything, Roy. But an archaeology/paleontology board isn't the place for political banter. You want a political debate? Go to a political board!