Current Biblical Archaeology

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Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

You see only what you want to see.

This, is as accurate a description of the status of modern archaeology as I have seen.


Thus far, archaeological research has not been bountiful on the period of the Israelite settlement. In most of the major places mentioned in the stories ofthe conquest, such as Jericho, 'Ai, 'Arad, and others, no strata of destruction from the Late Bronze Age which would accord with the biblical account have been found. Reputable scholars have suggested that the entire story of the conquest is nothing more than a later, etiological tradition which sets out to account for various manifestations in the light of mythological traditions and folklore.
With the exception of the "tribal affiliations" (for which there is no evidence) I doubt very much that Finkelstein would have a problem with this passage.
Recent extensive archaeological surveys of the central hill country, however, reveal clearly the process of Israelite settlement as a major settlement movement of the era (1250-1100 B.C.E.). Hundreds of newly-founded, small settlements were established within a short period throughout the hilly allotments of the tribes of Manasseh, Ephraim and Benjamin. The settlers used a characteristic type of pottery and their houses were generally built on a three- or four-room plan. Although Israelite pottery and architecture were influenced by the Canaanites, they have certain prominent and unique characteristics. In our survey of the hill country of Manasseh we were able to study the ecology of the Israelite settlement and, using new research methods, we succeeded in reconstructing the process by which they penetrated the central hill country from the eastern Transjordan
This, would be explicitly endorsed by Finkelstein, but not by Dever. It is the essence of their disagreement.
Evidently the beginning of the penetration, sometime in the 13th century B.C.E., was made by semi-nomadic shepherd groups migrating from the edge of the desert, by way of the "ecological pipe" of Wadi el Far'a (Nahal Tirzah). Many sites with ancient pottery typical of the settlement period were discovered along the fertile and well-watered valley of this river, which is surrounded by broad pasture.
They would both probably dispute the dating, but not the ultimate fact, of this passage.
In the next phase the Israelites established themselves along the edges of the internal valleys of the hill country of Manasseh: Tubas (biblical Thebez), Zebabdeh, Sanur, Dothan, and others. An economy based on olive and grape cultivation, which henceforth would characterize Israelite habitation of the hill country, did not emerge until the settlement process drew to a close at the end of the 12th century.
Lastly, this passage seems to mirror Canaanite practice as well...Dever makes that connection in his argument with Finkelstein.
The cultic site on Mt. 'Ebal satisfies the three criteria necessary to identify a biblical site: chronological (beginning of the Israelite settlement), geographical, and the nature of the site (a cultic center with a burnt-offering altar). In view of this analysis, the identity of the biblical story and this site as the first inter-tribal center of the Israelite tribes can hardly be doubted.
Funny. They manage that whole paragraph without a single reference to Egypt or Exodus.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Guest »

Recent extensive archaeological surveys of the central hill country, however, reveal clearly the process of Israelite settlement as a major settlement movement of the era (1250-1100 B.C.E.). Hundreds of newly-founded, small settlements were established within a short period throughout the hilly allotments of the tribes of Manasseh, Ephraim and Benjamin
okay, i probably stopped reading about here and did not see the other part. my fault.

i would disagree with the nomadic shephards as where did they come from? who were they?
In the next phase the Israelites
where did they get this idea of a next phase? there was only one conquest and one entrance into the land.

i still have finished it as this is my busiest day but with what you pointed out the only thing i can agree with is the alter, so far.
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

i would disagree with the nomadic shephards as where did they come from? who were they?
They lived there. It was their home. They lived a nomadic life style based on their flocks. The end of the Canaanite agricultural centers forced them to settle down and grow their own grain since they no longer had trading partners for their meat and milk.

Dever doubts that such groups could expand quickly enough to account for the subsequent development of the northern kingdom. He calls them proto-Israelites and believes that they were refugees from the Canaanite cities, chased away from the coast by constant fighting.

Both have evidence on their side (and probably there was a great mixing of populations in the aftermath of the Canaanite collapse but neither is ready to consider something along those lines, yet.) However, they have each written BOOKS on the subject and I cannot possibly do justice to their findings in the scope of a message board.

I realize that it is easier to just stick you head in the sand and say BIBLE over and over but you really do need to read their books to find out the nuances of the argument.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Guest »

He calls them proto-Israelites
dever creates a new word and you get all excited, like a virgin on her wedding night.

to use your style of argumentation:

there were no proto-israelites!!!!!!!!!!!!!! there weren't any nomadic shephards!!!!!!!!!!! #$%^& *&%$#!

seriously, just beacuse they wrote books does it mean that the interpretations they use are accurate. i have pointed out time and again that they ignore data and artifacts among other items of evidence and create in their minds a fabrication which denies the biblical record.

they are not above God nor are the last word in the matter.

i have class so i can't finish or go into more detail
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

there were no proto-israelites!!!!!!!!!!!!!! there weren't any nomadic shephards!!!!!!!!!!! #$%^& *&%$#!

And yo know this....how?





they are not above God nor are the last word in the matter.

They're better than god....they exist.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Guest »

And yo know this....how?
ancient sources and documents//how else do you think i know this. since the israelites came out of egypt they certainy weren't nomadic shephards nor some canaanites getting a hard on for foreign women.
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Post by Guest »

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Last edited by Guest on Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

ancient sources and documents

All you've got is the goddamn bible which isn't worth the parchment it was scribbled on.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by Guest »

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Last edited by Guest on Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Guest »

All you've got is the goddamn bible which isn't worth the parchment it was scribbled on.
knew it would get arise out of you.

seriously, what do dever and finkelstein pin their hopes on to support their conclusions? don't say 'archaeological evidence', give me an actual quote or two if possible so i can see what they are doing.

it would be weeks before a book gets here so it would be awhile before i could analyze their interpretations.

i do not see how they can come to their conclusions about nomadic shepards, etc.. but agian you didn't answer my questions so i guess i will never know.
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Last edited by Guest on Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

seriously, what do dever and finkelstein pin their hopes on to support their conclusions? don't say 'archaeological evidence', give me an actual quote or two if possible so i can see what they are doing.


You've never understood that "quotes" are not "evidence." Finkelstein has 25+ pages of a bibliography. Many of them have such exciting titles as:

Ussishkin, D(avid). 1995. The Destruction of Megiddo at the End of the Late Bronze Age and Its Historical Significance. Tel Aviv 22: 240-267

or,

Dever, W(illiam) G. 1995. Ceramics, Ethinicity, and the Questions of Israel's Origins. Biblical Archaeologist 58: 200-213

or,

Naaman, N(adav). 1993. Population Changes in Palestine Following Assyrian Deportations. Tel Aviv 20: 104-124.


I grant you these titles lack the drama of some jerkoff preacher screaming "JESUS....JESUS....JESUS" while pounding on his pulpit with snot flying out of his nose...but they form the basis of archaeological study, along with Yadin, Barkay, Zertal, Aharoni, and many others who also show up in his book. These people can tell more from a broken pottery shard than you ever knew in your whole life.

Nonetheless, for about the 4,000th time, I remind you that this board is about "archaeological evidence." It is not about bible fantasies. For that why not go join a Young Earth Creationist Board along with little Sharlene or whatever her name was from North Carolina. You'd probably fit right in and you might even serve as a good example to them with your ability to punctuate and spell.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
marduk

Post by marduk »

These people can tell more from a broken pottery shard than you ever knew in your whole life.

Its a cup
no wait.... don't tell me
its a bowl
:lol:
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Post by Guest »

You've never understood that "quotes" are not "evidence." Finkelstein has 25+ pages of a bibliography. Many of them have such exciting titles as:
so what, all that proves is that he knows how to study. a long bibliography proves nothing. but you sure use quotes when you need them and call them evidence. besides as it has been posted 'it is the same evidence just different interpretations of that evidence.'

when will you get it that we are not arguing over archaeological discoveries but interpretations of those finds. i have put forth thoughts that take into account the missing evidence, your boys finkelstein and dever dismiss such events because they only stick to what they can find then make flowing remarks about how smart they are because they have concluded something. which by the way comes on the foundation of throwing out factors theydo not want to deal with.
, for about the 4,000th time, I remind you that this board is about "archaeological evidence
then put some up. all you do is fall back on quotes by people who mislead and do not present the truth. i have put up archaeological evidence yet because it disagrees with you you cry and complain that this is an archaeological board.

you really don't care if this is an archaeological board or not, you just want a rubber stamped conversation and whenyou don't get it you cry loud andlong. finkelstein and dever are wrong, get used it hearing it.
For that why not go join a Young Earth Creationist Board along with little Sharlene or whatever her name was from North Carolina
why don't you just shut up and learn that not everything is going to go your way and that the evidence proves you and your buddies wrong. livingin the realm of denial is not going to help you.
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

but interpretations of those finds. i have put forth thoughts that take into account the missing evidence,

So, now you claim to be interpreting "missing evidence?"

How does that differ from "wishful thinking?"
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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