Firearms Archaeology

[Charlie Hatchett]

From: Charlie Hatchett
Date: 01/12/07 06:47:25
To: letters@archaeology.org; mark@archaeology.org
Subject: Typo- World's Oldest Spears Volume 50 Number 3, May/June 1997 by Arlette P. Kouwenhoven

Hi Mark.

I know this correction may be late in the game, but I figured better late than never.

In the subject article, the author states: "Radiocarbon dating has confirmed that three wooden spears found in a coal mine in Schoningen, near Hannover, Germany, are the oldest complete hunting weapons ever found. Some 380,000 to 400,000 years old...".

As we both know, 380,000 B.P.- 400,000 B.P. is well beyond the 14C method's resolution.
A gentleman, on a forum I visit from time to time, was nice enough to provide a reference to the actual method employed: http://www.eva.mpg.de/evolution/files/projects.htm .

If you have some spare time on your hands (ha!), here's a few hand-axes I've been recovering from a site in central Texas:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... s%203.html

Cheers,


Charlie Hatchett
PreClovis, Clovis and Archaic Artifacts
1-877-252-2351/ 1-512-453-6178 ( Austin)
charlie@preclovis.com / www.preclovis.com

[Cognito]

For those who want an overview of archaeological dating techniques currently in use:

http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/geo/rese ... dating.htm

[whitedog]

Santa Ana made a big show of cleaning up the battle site by burning the bodies of the defenders. He would not have left their weapons lying around, however.

It is unlikely that he would have had any military use for the weapons of the defenders as his army used the British Brown Bess and thus had standardized ammunition. While any sort of systematic collecting of arms is not likely, except to throw them on the fire, it is certainly likely that individual Mexican soldiers may have picked up some souvenirs that caught their fancy.

Equally feasible since Santa Ana had only about 700 men with him by the time of San Jacinto, is that he had been forced to make numerous detachments in order to protect his LOC on his advance. The defeated troops at San Jacinto would have been in no position to retain their personal baggage but those who were not defeated would have been able to withdraw with whatever they could carry.

Thus it is still quite possible that numerous arms from the Alamo and Goliad were brought back to Mexico by the parts of the army which were not defeated at San Jacinto but how you prove that any particular weapon had such a history is beyond me.

There is a knife on ebay that has extensive documentation as being recovered from a fallen Mexican soldier at the battle of San Jacinto. Item no. 120073658906. I wonder how much stuff picked up from the battledields of Texas Independence has been spread throughout Mexico and the Southwest. Fred G.

[Minimalist]

Good question but it's important to remember the relative small number of troops engaged in the War.

What is your opinion of the Colonel De La Pena diary controversy, Dog?

[Charlie Hatchett]

BTW, guys, sorry for the derail. Not sure how that started on this thread.

This is developing into a very nice thread.

O.K., carry on.

[Charlie Hatchett]

BTW, again...lol...

My dad collects firearms. He's got a couple of these:



And a couple of these:



And this beauty of a .22 hex barrel:

[whitedog]

Good question but it's important to remember the relative small number of troops engaged in the War.

What is your opinion of the Colonel De La Pena diary controversy, Dog?

Jose Enrique de la Pena difinitely wrote about what he saw and felt. Not much about what he heard. I think that the accounts of Co. Crockett's death along with another six defenders is accurate. I 'm aware, however of the controversy over the handwriting being different in certain passages of the diary. There're more questions brought up than firm answers given, that's for sure. The de la Pena parers along with other eyewitness accounts are extremely revealing. Good reading!

[whitedog]

BTW, again...lol...

My dad collects firearms. He's got a couple of these:



And a couple of these:



And this beauty of a .22 hex barrel:


That's quite an interesting firelock your dad has Charlie. The flintlock looks like it could be German. It appears to have an octagon barrel which could mean that it's a rifle. However the size of the lock looks to be musket size. The trigger guard is of the military or even a Fowler profile. The incised carving around the tang is European. What exactly is it? Do you have a bigger picture?

[Digit]

Could someone bring this Limey upto date on this diary? Never heard of it myself.

[Charlie Hatchett]

That's quite an interesting firelock your dad has Charlie. The flintlock looks like it could be German. It appears to have an octagon barrel which could mean that it's a rifle. However the size of the lock looks to be musket size. The trigger guard is of the military or even a Fowler profile. The incised carving around the tang is European. What exactly is it? Do you have a bigger picture?

Man, don't get me to lying. I'm pretty clueless.
I'll definitely ask my dad, and I'll snap some full-bodied shots next time I'm out at the ranch. I know he bought the muzzleloaded rifles and pistols at an auction house that would get truckloads of European furniture, and various other antiques, weekly. He bought the hex barrel at an estate sale. He uses that sucker to this day. He loves it.

[Minimalist]

This should outline the points of dispute, Digit.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9811/19/alamo.auction/

[Digit]

Thanks Min. Surely this is not the only written account? Old soldiers are notorious for writing their memoirs.

[Minimalist]

Not from the Texan side.


One survivor was Susanna Dickinson, wife of a Captain Dickinson. She survived the battle by hiding and was released by Santa Ana. I'm not aware of any memoirs she might have written.

[Beagle]

Good question but it's important to remember the relative small number of troops engaged in the War.

What is your opinion of the Colonel De La Pena diary controversy, Dog?

Jose Enrique de la Pena difinitely wrote about what he saw and felt. Not much about what he heard. I think that the accounts of Co. Crockett's death along with another six defenders is accurate. I 'm aware, however of the controversy over the handwriting being different in certain passages of the diary. There're more questions brought up than firm answers given, that's for sure. The de la Pena parers along with other eyewitness accounts are extremely revealing. Good reading!

The de la Pena diary is more accepted as authentic today I think. Part of the reason it was not accepted at the time is that folks just didn't like what he said. Nobody was willing to let go of their passionate belief that everyone, including Crockett, went down swinging.

Pena gives pretty good insight into how some of the Mexican ranks felt about the assault. 650 men died because Santa Ana didn't wait for his large cannons that were coming up the rear.

[Minimalist]

Santa Ana displayed some curious strategic moves in the Alamo campaign. In his defense, it was winter and moving heavy guns across the virtually non-existent roads would have been a tedious process. The Alamo had delayed him for nearly two weeks already and the big guns were still not on hand.

That said, once he had taken the position, he delayed for quite some time before beginning what amounted to a leisurely pursuit on Houston. If he were in no hurry to move north why not wait for the guns? If he was in a such a hurry why the delay in moving out?

Perhaps he did not have an "exit strategy?"