Current Biblical Archaeology

[Minimalist]

Actually, as you only read books by authors who tell you what you want to hear, you have no idea what the evidence is.

that is a false acusation if i ever heard one. usually when i read secular books i only have an idea of what they are going to say and it is usually not what i want to hear.

All you want to hear is that the bible is right....for that you need bible thumpers because everyone else knows the truth.

You haven't 'shown' jack shit

sure i have, you just don't accept and dismiss it to your realm of denial. it is because i do not agree with you and can back it up that pisses you off the most. you would be happy if i just went with what you say.

Bullshit. You equate the absence of evidence with proof of your theory. Applying your idea I could state that "Martians have taken over the State of Ohio and the fact that there is absolutely no evidence is proof that they have done so."

More of "the world according to Arch

common sense and logic.

More bible horseshit.

Find evidence to back up your conclusions and then we can talk.

i asked you for specifics and you never supply any, i have done so but you just ignore it since it isn't in your accept list of proofs.

The only evidence you supply is either some idiot opining that the bible is true or obsolete archaeological data which has been surpassed by recent science. You reject that science but don't say that the evidence has not been given, nor, that you have not been told where the books are. But you avoid those books as if you were Hasidic and they were made of pork.

unlike the non-existent "Davidic Empire" the northern kingdom actually seems to have accomplished something of note on the international stage.

that is something you can't prove and since we are getting more and more evidence from his time period we are seeing that he was real, and since we have the stele that mentions the 'house of david' and there were no kings after Ahab with that name, it stands to reason he and his father were not the first but that david established his line for the throne long before Ahab was even considered to exist.

You aren't getting shit, except more claims by psychotic Jewish settler groups who pull an Albright on any rock they find. Try to remember that there is not a signle piece of evidence linking Mazar's find to David of the mid-10th century.

i am not the one who is avoiding reality.

By hiding behind fraudulent texts from 2500 years ago that is exactly what you do.

[Guest]

look, you are going to argue from your sources and i am going to argue from mine, get used to it. you may not like it but they have the right to be heard as well plus most make more sense than finkelstein and dever.

since i am talking about i have a surprise for minimalist, once i figure out how to put an attachment on the post. any tips on how do to that?

[Guest]

here are two links, one for the Ipuwer Papyrus and the other for Manetho.

some study and discussion is needed on these to clarify a few points, i am only posting these for discussion and not to present as proving my side of things:

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/stream ... agues.html

Most scholars place the Ipuwer papyrus in the Thirteenth Dynasty, traditionally dated about 1600 B.C., but it is important to note that insufficient knowledge make dating everything except the Thera ash layer...very difficult."
- Charles Pellegrino, Unearthing Atlantis (1991) p. 78

http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html

Manetho owes his importance to the fact that he wrote the Aegyptiaca, a collection of three books about the history of Ancient Egypt, commissioned by Ptolemy II in his effort to bring together the Egyptian and Hellenistic cultures.

In order to do so, Manetho had access to the archives of the temple where he served as a priest. Such archives contained a vast number of different kinds of writings, ranging in contents from mythological texts to official records, from magical formulas to scientific treaties. He thus had all the sources he needed to write down the history of his country. With such sources, however, we may not be surprised to find myths and folk-tale mixed with the facts of the Egyptian history.

[Minimalist]

you are going to argue from your sources and i am going to argue from mine

Your sources have nothing but hot air to support them.

[Minimalist]

Charles Pellegrino, Unearthing Atlantis (1991) p. 78

Oh, you mean the Charles Pellegrino of the Jackson-Mississippi-Bible-Thumping-Asshole Pellegrino's? Yeah, he's as credible as his pal Jacobovici.


http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/ipuwer.htm

It is impossible to give a date for the composition of this document. The surviving papyrus (Papyrus Leiden 334) itself is a copy made during the New Kingdom. Ipuwer is generally supposed to have lived during the Middle Kingdom or the Second Intermediate Period, and the catastrophes he bewails to have taken place four centuries earlier during the First Intermediate Period.

[Guest]

Oh, you mean the Charles Pellegrino of the Jackson-Mississippi-Bible-Thumping-Asshole Pellegrino's? Yeah, he's as credible as his pal Jacobovici

i figured you would have guessed that i put that particular quote there to bug you. i could have chosen others... but since we are on the topic, here is his take on one of the passages:

"...There was blood throughout all the land of Egypt."
- Exodus 7:21

"Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere."
- Admonitions of Ipuwer 2:5-6

"...'Blood everywhere' could be a reference to people coughing up blood after inhaling the ash of Thera, or to the Nile River, polluted with acidy, sulfuric ash, filled with rotting fish and transformed, in effect, from the bringer of life to the river of death."
- Charles Pellegrino, Unearthing Atlantis (1991) p. 79

i think that that comment may be a bit of a stretch but i have noticed how closely the parallel is between the two texts.

The American historian J. G. Benett Jr. and Professor Galanopoulos have recently dealt with these prophetic texts and have both concluded that they describe the consequences of the Theran eruption in Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean. Moreover, Benett has express the opinion that the plaques of Egypt as described in Exodus might be due to the effects of the eruption."
- Christos G. Doumas Thera - Pompeii of the Ancient Aegean, p. 149

doumas, took over for s. martinos (sp) in the excavation of thera and santorinin after the latters death.

again the date seems to be in flux but i am thinking that the document is giving the egptian view of the plagues (at least till further research is done) it is too close to be talking about a separate event though that remains a possibility.

[Minimalist]

The end of the First Intermediate Period predates Thera by at least 4 centuries. It's just too much of a stretch.

[marduk]

don't forget they claimed they were there from predynastic times in the septugint

[Guest]

***

[Guest]

i was perusing james long's book (the riddle of the exodus) and i came across this little thing pg. 74-5:

"Seti, the father of Rameses built the temple to carry on the worship of Osiris. It was first excavated in 1864. Near the rear of the temple, on a wall covered with cartouches, is the king's list of the early Pharaohs of Egypt. It is a record of 75 kings from the 1st dynasty up to the 19th dynasty."

i mention this as while i was researching some more on manetho, it became apparant that all he was famous for was a king's list similar to this one which was carved more permenantly.

minimalist complains that it was religious people who butchered his works, though it was both jewish and non-jewish people that did the damage.

with this permenant record why are people so upset about the lost work of manetho? even wikipedia didn't venture beyond the standard tradition concerning his 3 volume work and mentioned nothing of importance except for his king's list.

[Minimalist]

The guy wrote a 3 volume "history" of Egypt and we have nothing left but a few remnants. That is the tragedy.

It would be like having only page 1 of genesis out of the whole bible.....which, on second though, probably wouldn't have been such a bad thing.

[Leona Conner]

[quote="Minimalist"]The end of the First Intermediate Period predates Thera by at least 4 centuries. It's just too much of a stretch.[/quote]

Not according to ancient history revisionists. If we believe that the bible is incorrect, why not the accepted dating of the old school establishment. Even Newton thought something was wrong, and there are more and more historians beginning to think that Egyptian history does not go back quite as far as has been believed all these years. If there is anything to it, that would explain some of the inconsistancies in things that happened at seemingly different times to different people. They all seem to agree that it could be 300 to 400 years off. The more I read the more I'm beginning to think they might be right.

[marduk]

well if its 600 years off then Narmer was Naram Sin
but I personally doubt it
despite all the evidence to the contrary

[Minimalist]

The only one that I've read who tried to do that was Jean Marie's pal, Rohl....and he did it to try to overcome the lack of archaeological evidence for the exodus. As I recall he tried to equate Ramses the Great with Sheshonq the First....ignoring lots of Egyptian history in the process.

We have records for most of the pharoahs of the Old and Middle Kingdoms, fragmentary in many cases but they cannot be dismissed. The New Kingdom is fairly well documented. So, it is only the Intermediate Phases which could be expanded or contracted but even those have records, even though it was a time of great upheaval.

[MichelleH]

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