Upheavals in the Third Millenium BCE

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Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Of course!
The Genesis flood killed all megafauna...

Why didn't I think of that! 8)

And after 150 days, when the rains ceased and the earth dried up again (where did all that water go for god's sake...? 8)), the floating cadavers of most mammoths conveniently ended up all together in only a few dozen ginormous heaps, where man, not much later, picked up thousands of tusks, and built their houses from them.

So if the Genesis flood was responsible for giant heaps of mammoth cadavers we should now be stumbling over hundreds of similar heaps of cadavers (now skeletal remains) of smilodons, ground sloths, giant beavers, auroch, etc. etc. at every second streetcorner. Don't we...?
Like the mammoths: neatly arranged by species of course.

So where are they?
Last edited by Rokcet Scientist on Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
kbs2244
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Post by kbs2244 »

Thanks for the Baumgardner link, Monk.
I would not be surprised if the C14 article isn't as important as the plate subduction.
Does he give a date? Have we come around and back to 2800 BC?
Now I have some bedtime reading.
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Post by Forum Monk »

Rokcet Scientist wrote:Of course!
The Genesis flood killed all megafauna...

Why didn't I think of that! 8)
You're not fooling me.
You knew it all along. Right?
:wink:
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Digit
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Post by Digit »

It's true that modern Judaism uses the word in that context Min, but when dealing words that have been used for so long, I tend to assume that their usage may well have changed.
UK English is afloat with words that have done so, even to the extent of reversing the original meaning.
Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

OOPS!
Wrong forum...

Hey! Wait for me, Arch! I'm coming, I'm coming!

8)
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

True enough, but the word apparently is used in other places for various meanings based on context.

Even with Katrina the press said New Orleans was flooded but it was never the whole city.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Digit
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Post by Digit »

Looks like spin doctors have been around for a long time eh Min?
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Charlie Hatchett
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Post by Charlie Hatchett »

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
Sounds like the Anunnaki. Didn't someone mention a while back about some theory that the Anunnaki gentically programmed Homo Erectus, and made them slaves? Strange that most Erectus sites are found in alluvial deposits:
To support the fluvial transport, Schick points out that "the majority of known Acheulean sites from anywhere in the world are found in fluvial contexts" (2001:466).3

http://www.ele.net/acheulean/handaxe.htm

I wonder what the correlation is between megafauna fossil discoveries and their being situated in fluvial/ pluvial deposits... :?
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Post by Forum Monk »

Charlie, if Marduk were here he would have fallen apart with rage and laughter all at the same time. Does the name Sitchin ring a bell?
Sitchin's extraterrestrials
In 1976, Zecharia Sitchin, claiming to translate and interpret Sumerian cuneiform texts, published the first of his books, The Twelfth Planet, in which he described in detail the technological wonders and knowledge of the ancient civilization of Sumeria. Sitchin asserts that the Anunnaki, an ancient group of extraterrestrials who interacted with the Sumerians, may have brought advanced technology to their civilization.

The Anunnaki are often depicted in ancient pictographs as winged creatures.

Sitchin's Sumerians believe in the existence of a planet that orbits two solar-systems called Nibiru which is home to two races, the Anu and the Nephillium. Every 3600 years this celestial body enters our solar system. According to Sumerian mythology interpreted by Sitchin, the Anu came to earth and created a slave race, humans, by bonding their genetic material with that of Homo erectus. Sitchin's Anu are described as god-like humans, but about twice as large: giants. They have genetically (re)engineered humans as a slave race to mine gold and restore Nibiru's atmosphere. At some point, Anunnaki passed control of Earth to the humans, but flooded it in attempt to wipe them out. Sitchin claimed that the Sumerians were aided in starting their civilization by an advanced race of beings called the Anunnaki ‘those who came from Heaven to Earth’. He described technological wonders possessed by the Anunnaki, and a factional war between the Anunnaki who finally departed the planet around 1700 BC. Sitchin described the home world of these beings as a mysterious planet that periodically returns to the vicinity of the solar system every 3,600 years. Sitchin’s translations, when combined with ancient historical records allegedly supporting the existence of Alien races in human affairs, suggest to some an important role was played by this ancient ET race in the genesis of humanity.

Followers and extrapolators of Sitchin hope this technology might be buried in an ancient city, such as Uruk in modern day Iraq, and that the Annunaki continued to come and go between their planet Nibiru and Earth, conducting genetic engineering with our species.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunaki

There may be an epigraphic link between the Anunaki, the "sons of god" of Genesis and the Watchers of the Book of Enoch but the genetic engineering bit is a topic for a different forum.
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Post by Charlie Hatchett »

There may be an epigraphic link between the Anunaki, the "sons of god" of Genesis and the Watchers of the Book of Enoch but the genetic engineering bit is a topic for a different forum.
:lol:

That's O.K., not to worry. :wink:

I was really trying to find out if there was a parallel in ancient Mesopotamian writings. The Son's of God bit is what I was after.
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Post by Forum Monk »

With regard to fossils and other remains in fluvial deposits, maybe the explanation is as simple as, these kinds of sedimentary deposits tend to preserve things better than other kinds of deposits. I mean there are only so many ways a bone can become trapped in concretions and deposits and water is usually involved.

Floods and rivers, move material quite efficiently and do tend to pile objects up in a place where the water flow is impeded. If this were not so, all rivers and streams would eventually plug up from their own sediments. Scientists claim that the Colorado River carved the Grand Canyon, but I have never heard an explanation where billions of tons of eroded rock were eventually deposited. Perhaps a good part of the Califoria peninsula used to be in Arizona?
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Charlie Hatchett
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Post by Charlie Hatchett »

Forum Monk wrote:With regard to fossils and other remains in fluvial deposits, maybe the explanation is as simple as, these kinds of sedimentary deposits tend to preserve things better than other kinds of deposits. I mean there are only so many ways a bone can become trapped in concretions and deposits and water is usually involved.

Floods and rivers, move material quite efficiently and do tend to pile objects up in a place where the water flow is impeded. If this were not so, all rivers and streams would eventually plug up from their own sediments. Scientists claim that the Colorado River carved the Grand Canyon, but I have never heard an explanation where billions of tons of eroded rock were eventually deposited. Perhaps a good part of the Califoria peninsula used to be in Arizona?
Sedimentary deposits do seem to preserve fossils quite well:

Carbon Dating Undercuts Evolution's Long Ages
by John Baumgardner, Ph.D.



...With the discovery of radioactivity about a hundred years ago, evolutionists deeply committed to the uniformitarian outlook believed they finally had proof of the immense antiquity of the earth. In particular, they discovered the very slow nuclear decay rates of elements like Uranium while observing considerable amounts of the daughter products from such decay. They interpreted these discoveries as vindicating both uniformitarianism and evolution, which led to the domination of these beliefs in academic circles around the world throughout the twentieth century.

However, modern technology has produced a major fly in that uniformitarian ointment. A key technical advance, which occurred about 25 years ago, involved the ability to measure the ratio of 14C atoms to 12C atoms with extreme precision in very small samples of carbon, using an ion beam accelerator and a mass spectrometer. Prior to the advent of this accelerator mass spectrometer (AMS) method, the 14C/12C ratio was measured by counting the number of 14C decays. This earlier method was subject to considerable "noise" from cosmic rays.

The AMS method improved the sensitivity of the raw measurement of the 14C/12C ratio from approximately 1% of the modern value to about 0.001%, extending the theoretical range of sensitivity from about 40,000 years to about 90,000 years. The expectation was that this improvement in precision would make it possible to use this technique to date dramatically older fossil material.1 The big surprise, however, was that no fossil material could be found anywhere that had as little as 0.001% of the modern value!2 Since most of the scientists involved assumed the standard geological time scale was correct, the obvious explanation for the 14C they were detecting in their samples was contamination from some source of modern carbon with its high level of 14C. Therefore they mounted a major campaign to discover and eliminate the sources of such contamination. Although they identified and corrected a few relatively minor sources of 14C contamination, there still remained a significant level of 14C—typically about 100 times the ultimate sensitivity of the instrument—in samples that should have been utterly "14C-dead," including many from the deeper levels of the fossil-bearing part of the geological record.2

Let us consider what the AMS measurements imply from a quantitative standpoint. The ratio of 14C atoms to 12C atoms decreases by a factor of 2 every 5730 years. After 20 half-lives or 114,700 years (assuming hypothetically that earth history goes back that far), the 14C/12C ratio is decreased by a factor of 220, or about 1,000,000. After 1.5 million years, the ratio is diminished by a factor of 21500000/5730, or about 1079. This means that if one started with an amount of pure 14C equal to the mass of the entire observable universe, after 1.5 million years there should not be a single atom of 14C remaining! Routinely finding 14C/12C ratios on the order of 0.1-0.5% of the modern value—a hundred times or more above the AMS detection threshold—in samples supposedly tens to hundreds of millions of years old is therefore a huge anomaly for the uniformitarian framework.

This earnest effort to understand this "contamination problem" therefore generated scores of peer-reviewed papers in the standard radiocarbon literature during the last 20 years.2 Most of these papers acknowledge that most of the 14C in the samples studied appear to be intrinsic to the samples themselves, and they usually offer no explanation for its origin. The reality of significant levels of 14C in a wide variety of fossil sources from throughout the geological record has thus been established in the secular scientific literature by scientists who assume the standard geological time scale is valid and have no special desire for this result!

In view of the profound significance of these AMS 14C measurements, the ICR Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth (RATE) team has undertaken its own AMS 14C analyses of such fossil material.2 The first set of samples consisted of ten coals obtained from the U. S. Department of Energy Coal Sample Bank maintained at the Pennsylvania State University. The ten samples include three coals from the Eocene part of the geological record, three from the Cretaceous, and four from the Pennsylvanian. These samples were analyzed by one of the foremost AMS laboratories in the world. Figure 1 below shows in histogram form the results of these analyses.

Image

Percent Modern Carbon

These values fall squarely within the range already established in the peer-reviewed radiocarbon literature. When we average our results over each geological interval, we obtain remarkably similar values of 0.26 percent modern carbon (pmc) for Eocene, 0.21 pmc for Cretaceous, and 0.27 pmc for Pennsylvanian. Although the number of samples is small, we observe little difference in 14C level as a function of position in the geological record...

...Applying the uniformitarian approach of extrapolating 14C decay into the indefinite past translates the measured 14C/12C ratios into ages that are on the order of 50,000 years (2-50000/5730 = 0.0024 = 0.24 pmc)...

...If one takes as a rough estimate for the total 14C in the biosphere before the cataclysm as 40% of what exists today and assumes a relatively uniform 14C level throughout the pre-Flood atmosphere and biomass, then we might expect a 14C/12C ratio of about 0.4% of today's value...

Some readers at this point may be asking, how does one then account for the tens of millions and hundreds of millions of years that other radioisotope methods yield for the fossil record? Most of the other RATE projects address this important issue. Equally as persuasive as the 14C data is evidence from RATE measurements of the diffusion rate of Helium in zircon crystals that demonstrates the rate of nuclear decay of Uranium into Lead and Helium has been dramatically higher in the past and the uniformitarian assumption of a constant rate of decay is wrong.3 Another RATE project documents the existence of abundant Polonium radiohalos in granitic rocks that crystallized during the Flood and further demonstrates that the uniformitarian assumption of constant decay rates is incorrect.4 Another RATE project provides clues for why the 14C decay rate apparently was minimally affected during episodes of rapid decay of isotopes with long half-lives.5

http://www.icr.org/article/117/
John, the rebel Los Alamos boy... :P
John Baumgardner
He has a B.S. in Electrical Engineering from Texas Tech University, a M.S. in Electrical Engineering from Princeton University and a M.S. and Ph.D. in Geophysics and Space Physics from UCLA. Dr. Baumgardner has served as staff scientist in the Fluid Dynamics Group of the Theoretical Division at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico since 1984. He is famous for his development of the TERRA program, a 3-D spherical finite element model for the earth's mantle. Beginning in 1995 Dr. Baumgardner assisted the German Weather Service in adapting methods from the TERRA code as the basis for a new operational global weather forecast model known as GME that is now used in Germany and ten other countries.
Charlie Hatchett

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Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

Since fossil remains need to be covered quickly after death, flood debris seems a likely place to find a disproportionate number of old bones. In such a way they are protected from scavengers.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
kbs2244
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Post by kbs2244 »

I have been watching our new friend, Istar, postings on the other threads and picked up on this by her:


" Another interesting point regards the calendars. The Indian, Olmec and Mayan calendars all begin around 3,000 BC. The Mayas' starts at August 13 3114 BC and the Olmecs' starts in 3113 BC.

According to some Indian researchers, this is roughly the date of the Mahabharata War, when the tribes of Bharatha (now India) fought and were all defeated by a branch of the Purus called the Padavas. The Bhagavad-gita, where Krishna instructs Arjuna on how to reach enlightenment, is set in the context of the Mahabharatha war. So those who take this literally believe that in this aftermath of this war, where so many tribes were defeated, there was a kind of worldwide diaspora to all points of the compass, and that's why the Maya and Olmec calendars start there.

Btw I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Imho, the Mahabharatha is just a "modern remake" of The Battle of the Ten Kings from the much much older Rig-veda. And I still haven't worked out whether I think this battle is mythological or really happened - but for anyone interested, there is very good e-book on the subject that I think makes a good case for it being a historical fact. "

Mostly because of the Biblical influence, I have assumed a Mesopotamia source for the dispersion of apx. 3000 BC. But could it have been from an Indus source? Or a dual source? She speaks of a war as the reason for the dispersal . But wars often come in the aftermath of natural catastrophes. I have no doubt there was trade and thus mutual religious and technical influence between the Indus and Euphrates civilizations. Perhaps there was a related need for some of their elite class to leave their respective home bases at the same time peroid?

A passing thought about India and South America. Isn’t there a temple in India with some of the statues holding up ears of corn? It seems that would indicate trade. Prolonged, two way, contact.

BTW, I am just finishing up on John Baumgardnar’s writings. Not quite ready to comment, but I can see why he is a bit controversial. He is a good scientist, and he is a creationist. The word heretic comes to mind.
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Post by Minimalist »

He is a good scientist, and he is a creationist.
The word "contradiction" comes to mind.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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