Upheavals in the Third Millenium BCE

[kbs2244]

I found the peru Stonehedge date.
Only 4 BC.
I guess it was a slow boat from England.

[Forum Monk]

Monk, I don't quite know where you're headed with this one. Beyond the Akkadian collapse due to an extensive drought circa. 2200bce (clearly marked on the following graph) there isn't much to write home about until the Santorini eruption in 1628bce (Mt. Etna erupted circa. 1784bce but it wasn't a major event).
The world's population estimate for 3000bce is 14 million, nearly doubling to 27 million in 2000bce. If there were a "series of disasters" they sure didn't affect reproduction. The 2200bce climate collapse brought down the Akkadian empire while Egypt's administrative infrastructure fell apart.

Well, I know there's a lot to read in the previous links, and I tend to go along with the climate change theory which was in any case, a fairly rapid event. Still people are finding evidences of ash layers and other things, which suggest that the earth may have been struck by something.

So, how does this relate to the Tower of Babel?

It really doesn't but since I'm stirring things up a bit...

[Minimalist]

As we see today in Africa the tipping point for disaster is shockingly low. A famine begins because of low rainfall and the next thing you know you have civil war with all sides tormenting the farmers thus aggravating the food situation.

The veneer of civilization is quite thin.

[Forum Monk]

I found the peru Stonehedge date.
Only 4 BC.
I guess it was a slow boat from England.

I agree. I lot of what I find in N.A. and S.A. are recent structures and cultures, although there are some who dispute that.

[Beagle]

As we know, the Mayan calender ends in 2012 on the winter solstice.
If I remember correctly the last cycle ended with a great flood. We also know that the Mayan had these cycles divided in groups of 5125 years.

So counting backward, I guess the Maya are saying that the great flood occurred in 3113 BC.

[Forum Monk]

Thanks to the rediscovery in recent times, of considerable portions of Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Hittite, and Canaanite literature, it is now possible to recognize in the Bible several traces of ancient Near Eastern mythology.



These appear in three forms:

Direct Parallels
Allusions
Survivals (in figurative expressions)


In all cases they are accommodated to the religion of Israel by boldly transferring to Yahweh the heroic feats of older/other pagan gods.



Sumerian literature contained a number of literary forms and themes found much later in the Bible.



Some of the more conspicuous themes involve:

The creation of the universe
The creation of Man
The techniques used in creation
Paradise (Eden or Dilmun)
The withholding of immortality from man
The ‘Cain-Abel’ motif
The ‘Tower of Babel’ motif
The earth and its organization
Divine retribution and natural catastrophe
The plague
The ‘Job’ motif
Death and the under world
Concerns with law, ethics and morality
The flood (the story that has the closest connection with biblical literature.

The above was written by some random person who calls himself "The Seeker". Isn't the internet a wonderful thing?

[kbs2244]

Charlie:
You made me look up Peleg. It will be a path to follow, but I expect it will fade pretty fast. (BTW it would be easier if you sited chapter as well as verse. But I found it OK.)
It does say "In his days," so that would seem to indicate he was alive and saw it happen. Maybe the whole Tower of Babel thing was witnessed from afar by a population of "true believers?"
As I said in the other post, the problem with using the Bible for history, is that it wasn't meant to be used that way. It has a very narrow focus.
That is one of the problems I have with what Minimalist calls the “Fundies.” They want to take the whole book literally, and you just cannot do that.
Just the books of Daniel and Revelation will tell that there is a whole lot of symbolism involved in the book. Also, I expect they were not the only writers that made use of that concept.
I hate to say it, because it opens up the whole “That is your interpretation, but this is mine” can of worms, but I do think you have to kind of “pick and chose” when a certain passage is figurative, literal, or symbolic.
And the Tower of Bable conection is that it happened not long after the Flood, and the Flood is dated by some to this time frame.

[Forum Monk]

KB
We must be making some connection on this thread, because again, I agree with much of what you have to say. Peleg means 'division" because in his days the earth was divided. Was that political, or physical? Some have even speculated continental drift, but thats pushing credulity a bit.

Perhaps the stories in Genesis are relating events which happened much farther back in time; say the 9th and 10th millenium. Perhaps it is just skipping a lot of nonessential detail.

[Digit]

In very recent times Beag there have been two, (at least) cometary/asteroid impacts on this plant, one in Mongolia and one in the Amazon area. Any low flying aircraft soon reveals just how little of this planet is actually urbanised, but either of those two impacts, both small, would have have been nasty had they struck an urban area or into shallow seas, and I would suggest that statistically this must have happened at sometime in human history. Either that or we've been inordinately lucky!
An impact in phase with the Earth's rotatation and coming in at a shallow angle would appear to travel quite slowly and almost certainly leave a considerable trail behind it with at least a red hot front, want to bet how that would have been described?

[Forum Monk]

As we know, the Mayan calender ends in 2012 on the winter solstice.
If I remember correctly the last cycle ended with a great flood. We also know that the Mayan had these cycles divided in groups of 5125 years.

So counting backward, I guess the Maya are saying that the great flood occurred in 3113 BC.

Interesting observation Beagle. I need to mull this over.

[Digit]

What you say KB is probably correct, but can I offer a different interpretion.
From the 21stC, looking at various Biblical, and other works, some of what is said certainly seems to be mythical.
But we are looking at these statements through 21stC eyes, how I wonder, would your great grandfather have attempted to describe a 747, television, an auto, cinema etc etc.
We think that with 21stC eyes we have clear vision, but I wonder if perhaps we are in fact, wearing blinkers.

[kbs2244]

I am trying to find the reference, but I seem to remember they found a nice round hole in the swamps of Southern Iraq. A lot like Lake Okeechobee in Florida.
If that hit was in this time frame, and depending on the current water level, I would expect a lot of water going up and then coming down. Something to be talked about for years, and a god reason to try and find another place to live.
I can imagine some people taking it as an omen to leave.

[Minimalist]

The above was written by some random person who calls himself "The Seeker". Isn't the internet a wonderful thing

Do you expect it to be written by the fucking pope? I go through this with Arch all the time. Religious sites will never delve into this sort of thing because it does not suit their aims. I'm sure marduk can get you better citations for Sumerian literature than I.

[kbs2244]

You are right Digit. When you are explaining thing to someone, you have to use terms that they understand.
That is one of the explanations used about many of the Biblical writings referring to locations. The critics says the writer refers to kingdoms, or governments, or whatever that did not exist at the time he is referring to.
But they did exist at the time of his writing. So for his audience sake he used current place names.
How many collage kids can tell you where Anatolia was? But if you say Turkey, you may get a glimmer of recognition.

[Minimalist]

But we are looking at these statements through 21stC eyes, how I wonder, would your great grandfather have attempted to describe a 747, television, an auto, cinema etc etc.

At some point in time people who had never seen a 747, a television, an auto or a cinema had to find ways to describe those very things which were invented in their lifetimes. They managed to find a way.

My dad is 90. When he was born in New York City in 1916 there were no televisions, no jet liners, few autos and only a few primitive theaters. The streets were full of horse-drawn carts delivering ice to homes which had no refrigeration.

Somehow, he adapted. The 20th century was a time of continuous technological innovation. People living before 1850 had it a hell of a lot easier in that regard.