Well....Whaddaya You Know

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

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Cognito
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Matrilineal Societies

Post by Cognito »

With respect, Cogs, this may be a misunderstanding about the power of women in society, going back in time. It is widely thought that ancient tribes were matrilineal in structure and that the patrilineal model is only a relatively recent development.

This would make sense given the fact that mitochondrial DNA is normally inherited exclusively from one's mother. OK, they didn't have the science of geneaology then as we know it ... but they knew a lot more about the natural world than we often credit them with, by other means.
Actually, I agree with you. However, I am postulating that matrilineal society began with HS about 50,000 years ago, resulting in a radically different lifestyle that promoted an exponential increase in species population (i.e. women shamans/midwives). No, I do not believe that HN society had made the shift to matrilineal prior to the time HS showed up in Europe. Please - prove me wrong. :D

Something occurred at 50,000 years ago that wasn't there prior thereto which allowed a population explosion of HS. Genetics is ruled out since the HS had already been around in its current form for 150,000 years. I don't see any physical characteristics that would account for the change, so I am going with a cultural shift that affected the entire species. 8)
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Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

Hmmm... cheeky cheeky boy! :wink:

I don't know how you do things in the Land of the Free, my dear Patrick, but over here in the Motherland, where the rules of the Oxford debating chamber have been long established, we do things properly. If someone postulates a theory, they have to make a case for it, and not the other way round.

Having said that, though, I still think I'm ahead on points, according to the Law of Necessity Being the Mother of Invention. HN was the first mammal to be in need of a midwife being as she had the same design fault as HSS. But maybe you don't think HN women were intelligent enough to figure that out?

Anyway, I'm glad you agree that women are superior!

Btw, there is a sort of theory doing the rounds of the New Agers over here (which means its based on evidence that's about as substantial as Scotch mist) that women once did rule over men entirely. But then they misused their powers and caused all sorts of problems. So the sensible and reliable men had to take over.

Personally, I think this story was made up and put about by a man! :D



Love Ishtar x

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Digit
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Post by Digit »

Well consider yourself appropriately placed Cog!
I find this debate fascinating as it tends to open a debate close to my heart. I have stuck my neck out in the past with a stated dislike of Judaism and Islam because of their treatment of women, and in both cases it appears, to me at least, to based on a fear of the fair sex.
Women must be covered lest they tempt men astray etc etc. No women must do such and such if she is menstruating as she is 'unclean', again etc etc.
Yet there appears to be a strong case that women were at one time revered for what is now used as an excuse for keeping them in a subservient position.

Roy.
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Cognito
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Postulate

Post by Cognito »

I don't know how you do things in the Land of the Free
Where on earth did you get the idea that this is the "land of the free"? There ain't nothing free here, people nor otherwise. :shock:

I am removing the term postulate in favor of WAG. How's that? :D
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john
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Post by john »

All -

I will present two apparently dissimilar links:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.j ... and122.xml

http://www.second-congress-matriarchal- ... droth.html

On the one hand, we have the last of Homo n.

In possession of a pretty sophisticated palate,

Which includes seals and dolphins.

Now, seals, I can possibly see as a shore-based kill,

Maybe just.

But Dolphins are a fast moving pelagic offshore mammal.

The idea that dolphin corpses just regularly

Washed onshore, and were then utilized,

In whatever state of rot, by Homo n.,

Is absurd.

Didn't hear the word "boat" once.

OK, I'll live with it.

On the other hand we've got matriarchy and patriarchy.

Which really are systems of

Knowledge, continuity, tribal and spiritual management.

So I will make this argument,

That Homo n. disintegrated as a direct result

Of the societal shift from matriarchy to patriarchy.

And I'll be quite direct here -

The rape of matriarchy leads directly

To the environmental death created by patriarchy.

Homo n., after all, was "ahead of us".

Now Homo s. is reaping the whirlwind

Of the patriarchal methodology.

After all, there was a whole lotta world to burn.

But now we are at the beginning of the end of it.

Consider this.

Prove me wrong if you can,

And I wish you would.

If, today, you had the choice between investing in Goldman-Sachs

And a piece of ground in which to grow a vegetable garden,

Which would you choose?


hoka hey

john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."

Mark Twain
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

John, from your link:
Even today there are peoples with matriarchal patterns in Asia, Africa, the Americas and Oceania. None of these is a mere reversal of patriarchy, where women somehow rule over men, as it is often commonly misinterpreted. Instead, they are, without exception, egalitarian societies. This means that hierarchies, classes and the domination of one gender by the other are all unknown to them. They are societies that are free of domination, but they still have their guidelines and codes. And this is what makes them so attractive to those looking for a new philosophy to support the creation of a just society.

Equality does not mean a mere levelling of differences. The natural differences between the genders and the generations are respected and honoured in matriarchies, but they never serve to create hierarchies, as is common in patriarchy. The different genders and generations each have their own value and dignity, and through complementary areas of activity they depend on each other.

This can be observed at all levels of society: the economic level, the social level, the political level, and in the areas of their worldviews and faiths. More precisely, matriarchies are societies with complementary equality, where great care is taken to provide a balance. This applies to the balance between genders, among generations, and between humans and nature.
Among shamans, the earth and Nature is seen as feminine and is often referred to as the Great Mother. Shamans work in harmony with her, creating and restoring balance where necessary. It would seem, from from John's linked article above, that matriarchal societies did (and still do) work in harmony with nature, rather than exploit it like the male-dominated, power-based hierarchies of today.

This, imo, is more evidence that the original shamans were probably women. As midwives to humanity, they would have seen the earth as the midwife to all souls that are born here to learn their lessons, and then move on to the next dimension.

Talking about male-dominated rapers of Mother Earth, I recently did some work for the global mining company, Rio Tinto. They wanted me to write about what they were doing in terms of sustainable development - i.e. caring for the environment and the social needs of the people where they site their mines.

I thought it would be mere tokenism ... but I was amazed and delighted at the extent of it in the end. They have a whole massive programme that must be costing them billions of dollars, without which, they say, they wouldn't get a licence to drill. The world has changed, partly because of climate change and the need to act more sustainably. But also beause we are giving greater recognition to the rights and spiritual traditions of indigenous peoples, and respecting them.

For instance, nowadays, before opening a new mine in northern Australia on aboriginal land, Rio Tinto has to get permission from the tribal elders. They consult with them on a plan of what would be most appropriate to put into the community in terms of schools, healthcare and so on. On top of that, Rio Tinto also has to produce a plan of how they will close the mine at the end of its days (usually about 40 years) and restore the land to its original pristine beauty.

At the opening of the mine, nothing can happen until the tribal elders have performed their lengthy shamanic ceremony. The mine is seen as a womb, a uterus, and the tribe's shaman asks permission of the Great Mother for the miners to enter her and to take the ores from her. All the miners take part in this ceremony and also the company management and execs.

For a big, rough, tough mining company like Rio Tinto (and all the others, apparently, have had to make the same changes) this is quite a turnaround and perhaps a good omen for the future, John. So don't give up hope just yet. It may be the beginning of the beginning! And you might be able to invest in sustainable companies through Goldman Sachs and still have your vegetable patch :D





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Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

Where on earth did you get the idea that this is the "land of the free"?

It is the land of the 'terribly expensive!'
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Cognito
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Matriarchy

Post by Cognito »

So I will make this argument,
That Homo n. disintegrated as a direct result
Of the societal shift from matriarchy to patriarchy.
And I'll be quite direct here -
The rape of matriarchy leads directly
To the environmental death created by patriarchy.
Homo n., after all, was "ahead of us".
Now Homo s. is reaping the whirlwind
Of the patriarchal methodology.

HN could have reacted to the stress of the Toba near-extinction event and depopulation circa 69,000bce by going patriarchal (i.e. their societal structure fell apart) while HS in Africa remained matriarchal since environmental stresses were not as severe. A six year nuclear winter followed by a thousand-year ice age in Europe is enough to give anyone a bad attitude! :shock:

Even in the throes of an ice age Africa is still warm enough to travel around barefoot and work on your tan. 8)

So - patriarchy eventually became the HS rage by 5,000bce with a twist: Some genius figured out how to expand HIS population through planned agriculture while killing off his enemies (i.e. competition) and stealing their possessions through the institution of organised, state-sponsored warfare. Just add religion to make your mega-theft acceptable to those around you.

Specialization and dependence on agriculture is great motivation ... DO MY BIDDING OR STARVE!!! :evil:
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Digit
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Post by Digit »

I remember Rio Tinto from my dealings with them a long time ago Ish. Times have changed.
But it looks as though they were pushed into it or no mining.
But better that than how they have operated in the past though.

Roy.
kbs2244
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Post by kbs2244 »

Ishtar
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Re: Matriarchy

Post by Ishtar »

Cognito wrote: HN could have reacted to the stress of the Toba near-extinction event and depopulation circa 69,000bce by going patriarchal (i.e. their societal structure fell apart) while HS in Africa remained matriarchal since environmental stresses were not as severe. A six year nuclear winter followed by a thousand-year ice age in Europe is enough to give anyone a bad attitude! :shock:
I'm interested that you assume that the HN women couldn't deal with a crisis, Cogs.

Add to that their inability to organise themselves into midwives ... and I guess you must think that they were a right shower.

How come then, that you think HSS women were so different? Were they trained by the Daughters of the Revolution? :D


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Post by Ishtar »

kbs2244 wrote:Would this have any relationship to the female vs male shaman debate?

http://www.livescience.com/health/08090 ... e-gap.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.j ... ins108.xml
KB, I think you'll find that this YouTube vid proves all those scientists wrong.

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=GuMZ73mT5 ... re=related


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Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

Digit wrote:I remember Rio Tinto from my dealings with them a long time ago Ish. Times have changed.
But it looks as though they were pushed into it or no mining.
But better that than how they have operated in the past though.

Roy.
Yes, they were forced to change, Roy - along with the rest of the world.

It may be too little, too late.

We'll have to see.
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Cognito
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Crisis

Post by Cognito »

I'm interested that you assume that the HN women couldn't deal with a crisis, Cogs.
Ah, that's not what I implied. I was proposing that HN society was devastated by the Toba eruption moreso than HS - to the point where anarchy ruled and a resulting patriarchy was formed. After all, the shamans did not protect them, did they?
Add to that their inability to organise themselves into midwives ... and I guess you must think that they were a right shower.
HN women certainly had that ability and may have done so. However, I am proposing that matriarchal society was discarded due to the effects of a near-extinction event.
How come then, that you think HSS women were so different? Were they trained by the Daughters of the Revolution?
Hmm ... I was under the impression that it was a Rebellion against King and Country. Where did I go wrong? :D
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Ishtar
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Re: Crisis

Post by Ishtar »

Cognito wrote: I was under the impression that it was a Rebellion against King and Country. Where did I go wrong? :D
I was trying to think of what would be your equivalent of our Women's Institute - a very upright and organised body of women who are extremely proficient at making jam! :D


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