Upheavals in the Third Millenium BCE

[Charlie Hatchett]

You might read the whole article and click on the link at the end.

I did. What do you want me to note?

[Minimalist]

Whatever you feel like. There is a plethora of information there and following those links leads to others.

You cannot expect this to be a three minute exercise. Evolution is a bit more complex than that.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Whatever you feel like. There is a plethora of information there and following those links leads to others.

You cannot expect this to be a three minute exercise. Evolution is a bit more complex than that.

You're assuming I know nothing of the ToE. But I do: I was indoctrinated through our public schools and universities.

[Minimalist]

I find it preferable to this:

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[Charlie Hatchett]

I find it preferable to this:

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Why?

For example, the first verse you quoted:

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Do we not see in our everyday observations "the earth bringing forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth"? Our everyday observations tell us this is true. And remember, seed springs forth without light the best. Light is needed to sustain.

[Minimalist]

I see nothing divine in a seed sprouting.

I don't need magic to explain the world.

[Charlie Hatchett]

I see nothing divine in a seed sprouting.

I don't need magic to explain the world.

I do see something "divine" in the information packed, self-replicating cycle of plant life. ToE is "magic", imo. In the beginning was randomness...This great God of randomness is our creator.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Interesting article on The Expanding Spacetime Theory:

18. Discussion.
The Big Bang theory is based on the assumption that the Universe expands by changing the relation between the metrics of space and time. However, Einstein suggests that the strong principle of equivalence is of fundamental importance in the Universe. If this principle is extended to apply to all locations in space and time, the relation between the two metrics must remain unchanged. This implies that the pace of time is decreasing as the cosmos expands. The scales (metrics) of space and time are interlocked in the continuously expanding spacetime. The changing pace of time could be the missing factor that explains many unresolved cosmological enigmas...


The Expanding Spacetime (EST) theory of this paper, which also is based on the perfect cosmological principle, proposes that the Universe evolves by expanding the metrics of both space and time. This idea is motivated by the realization that the scale of material objects cannot be absolute in a completely relativistic universe. The scale of material objects ought to change with the scale of spacetime...


...Since variable transformation in GR implies that the strong equivalence principle holds, a (discrete) scale change must imply that the scale of matter depends on the scale of spacetime. If this were not the case, the energy-momentum tensors for spacetimes of different scales ought to differ. This equivalence of scaled spacetimes expresses of a fundamental symmetry property of the Universe...

http://www.estfound.org/presenting.htm

[Minimalist]

The Big Bang theory is based on the assumption that the Universe expands by changing the relation between the metrics of space and time.

The Big Bang theory has nothing to do with the evolution of life on earth.

[john]

Anyone considered

ice - 9

lately?



john

[Charlie Hatchett]

The Big Bang theory is based on the assumption that the Universe expands by changing the relation between the metrics of space and time.

The Big Bang theory has nothing to do with the evolution of life on earth.

That was a separate post. This was the response to your post:

Minimalist wrote:

I see nothing divine in a seed sprouting.

I don't need magic to explain the world.

I do see something "divine" in the information packed, self-replicating cycle of plant life. ToE is "magic", imo. In the beginning was randomness...This great God of randomness is our creator.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Anyone considered

ice - 9

lately?



john

[Minimalist]

This great God of randomness is our creator.

That will not satisfy the Fundies who want to teach creationism in our science classes, Charlie.

[Forum Monk]

A few points I would like to note about the foregoing conversation. There is a ton of 'bad' science being promoted by some fundementalist pulpits mainly by guys who are NOT scientists but have a big voice. There is presently very little science to creationism and little to intelligent design but the point that many of them make is there are significant gaps in ToE as well. There are plenty of theories. Everyone has theories but there are few observations or experiments which confirm them.

In an earlier statement, Min, you said the 'lies' of the creationists made you question their motives. I am curious what you think their motives are. Control the world? Convert you to Christianity? Convert you grandchildren to christianity? Point out some flaws in the accepted paradigms?

[Charlie Hatchett]

This great God of randomness is our creator.

That will not satisfy the Fundies who want to teach creationism in our science classes, Charlie.

It was actually ToE Fundies to whom I was referring.