Forum Monk wrote:
That cut me Ishtar. Seriously.
I am actually nice. It bothers me that you may actually think I'm otherwise. Perhaps I've been too harsh with you.
Sorry FM, I was just joking but I guess it came over wrong. I've never doubted that you were very nice. You also make me laugh with your way out humour, like making Kenny shake when I said that you were on shakey ground. And I do enjoy our discussions as you are very intelligent. It's just that we often take opposite sides of the argument so that joke stemmed from that.
I seem to have a habit lately of opening my mouth and putting my foot in it.... I don't know why. Maybe I should shut up.
I seem to have a habit lately of opening my mouth and putting my foot in it.... I don't know why. Maybe I should shut up. Embarassed
Ish, don't even consider it!!!!
Being 'non-pc' helps make this board, it shows we're all human.
Thanks Michelle - I think I've been more human than most recently. I had really bad flu that went on for weeks, and I haven't been the same since! Maybe it was really foot and mouth disease......?
...didn't realize all this was taking place in the Parallel Universe of the "Everything Else Forum".... John's curious post this morning that showed up briefly in the main discussion board..." Commodities: Final on the various "drug" argument" tipped me off.
I would like to reiterate Ish's insight:
Discussing how shamans have always taken psychotropic substances is a legitimate matter for discussion on this board, as in order to understand about ancient man, we need to understand about shamanism.
Pramble from paper by Michael Winkelman entitled "Shamanism and Cognitive Evolution"
....we have better access to Upper Palaeolithic
peoples’ religious experiences than other
aspects of their lives because of the neuropsychological
basis of those experiences. The commonality
in the experiences of shamanism across space and
time provides a basis for forming ‘some idea of the
social and mental context out of which Upper Palaeolithic
religion and art came’
For a more accessable discussion of Entoptic Phenomena and how it relates to a shamanic paradigm in cave and rock-art see Hancock's (I know, I know) "Supernatural", chapter 8.
Apologies to any and all if my personal experiences and enthusiam for this subject appeared as an endorsement for drug use in general.
Ishtar wrote:Sorry FM, I was just joking but I guess it came over wrong. I've never doubted that you were very nice. You also make me laugh with your way out humour, like making Kenny shake when I said that you were on shakey ground. And I do enjoy our discussions as you are very intelligent. It's just that we often take opposite sides of the argument so that joke stemmed from that.
I seem to have a habit lately of opening my mouth and putting my foot in it.... I don't know why. Maybe I should shut up.
Sorry Ishtar, maybe I was being sensitive. I do think our debates are some of the more interesting ones of late, and yes I admit I have an offbeat sense of humor. Perhaps drier than most. But if I do come across as particularly harsh toward you, its not intentional. I don't want the discussions to get personal.
woodrabbit wrote:John's curious post this morning that showed up briefly in the main discussion board..." Commodities: Final on the various "drug" argument" tipped me off.
Ha! So I'm not crazy - there was a disappearing post. I saw it this morning but our filter at work blocked it : reason "illegal drugs". I half expected the company internet police to come knocking. Anyway, I got home and it was gone. I thought I had "hallucinated". Perhaps got a glimpse of the future; crossed into another realm; had a kundalini experience.
I guess imposing our moral values on what we find is common, even our computers filter it, how can we do science when we are limited on the topic we can cover by our computer systems.
I say that you try to talk about it anyway,
it will likely bring to light that drug use by young people was rare throughout history, it was and should be an old person's issue,
telling them that they can't do it will make them want it more,
showing them that it is an old persons thing to have a problem with drugs, may get them to never try it at all.
I bet that the kids can handle the truth, and it should not get them to start a drug problem if it is shown for what it really is.
I guess imposing our moral values on what we find is common, even our computers filter it, how can we do science when we are limited on the topic we can cover by our computer systems.
Or our own minds and preconceived notions?
By saying we shouldn't discuss the taking of psychotropic herbs by shamans on a site dedicated to history is doing the same thing as the censoring system on our computers.
I guess imposing our moral values on what we find is common, even our computers filter it, how can we do science when we are limited on the topic we can cover by our computer systems.
Or our own minds and preconceived notions?
By saying we shouldn't discuss the taking of psychotropic herbs by shamans on a site dedicated to history is doing the same thing as the censoring system on our computers.
All -
Hunter T. was a quintessential Shaman.
Dispute me that.
john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."
Well, I’m sorry Michelle and John, but I think I’m going to have to disagree with you that Hunter S Thompson was a shaman. Visionary, yes. Inspired misfit, yes. Poet, yes — and the world would have been a much duller place without him. But he was not a shaman. Let me explain why:
The definition of a shaman is someone who journeys across the three worlds, or dimensions, to gain healing, insight and information which they then bring back to their tribe, or community, or individuals within that community.
This is done in a very conscious and controlled way. The shaman has a map and knows where he is going on that map. Any use of psychotropic substances is also done in a very controlled way, and is attended by ceremony and ritual to invoke the protecting spirits, so that he can safely journey into the Realms of the Dead, if necessary, and return.
None of this seems to apply to Hunter S Thompson who, rather like myself in the Sixties and Seventies, did not use pyschotropic substances in a controlled and sacramental way, did not appear to know where he was going but ‘hell! it’s fun anyway!’ and in the end, the drugs were taking him rather than him taking the drugs.
On top of that, his death was not one of a shaman. When an experienced shaman realises that it’s time to go, he just journeys into the Realms of the Dead, which he knows very well, and doesn’t come back. He doesn’t need to put a shotgun to his head.
When you take drugs like mescaline and peyote, but don’t know what you’re doing, you can stumble upon these other dimensions and become inspired (literally, the word means ‘imbued with spirit’) by what you experience there. Then when you ‘come back’, you can produce some very interesting art – poetry, prose, painting or music – that pushes the edge of contemporary collective consciousness.
Two other examples come to mind of artists who were inspired in this way: Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison. Of course, we know Coleridge took opium and possibly even William Blake.
But these inspired artists are out of control and - because nature abhors a vacuum, end up becoming controlled by the drugs. They also suffer from the law of diminishing returns. After a while, so the song goes, the drugs don’t work, or not in the way they want them to. So they often live lives where others they try to form relationships with become hurt and damaged, and they usually die young or, at least, badly.
The other down side is that they never get that deep into the other dimensions, because those worlds, like this one, are governed by firm rules and there are gatekeepers at every level. So you can't get into the deeper ones without, say, a visa, or an open sesame, which you can only know about if you have been apprenticed to a skilled shaman.
In addition, the shaman acts more responsibly than the typical drug-taking visionary, because he fully understands the value and rarity and purpose of the human body, of human life, and thus acts in a way as to preserve it, rather than destroy or damage it.
Having said all that, if these inspired artists had been born into a world that was more supportive of their genius, a more shamanic one, they probably would have made excellent shamans.
Last edited by Ishtar on Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why would anyone even consider Thompson as being into any true form of occultism? Doesn't compute.
Ish: Morrison and Hendrix may have had some occult, but they were mostly shooting stars looking to always go forward and I don't think they were interested in returning or helping others to heal or return. Don't even think they really cared much for extending their current time either.
Now Santana on the other hand - very much of his music from his albums has a very strong influence.
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin
You don’t think Santana is on a self destructive “shooting star” ride?
From the size of his pupils, when he takes off his sun glasses, it is obvious he is not afraid to “cross on over to the other side.”
Maybe Santana is following a self-destructive path, i kind of doubt it myself because he always seems to be such a positive person. Use and abuse are not mutually inclusive.
Maybe it was really foot and mouth disease......?
