Archaeologica.org

Rokcet Scientist wrote:

Minimalist wrote:

Rokcet Scientist wrote:Those cohorts with 2-javelins-per-legionair were a form of light infantry.

Um....no.

In the early Republican period the Romans light troops, the velites, were still armed with a couple of pila but wore no armor giving them mobility at the expense of defense. The first and second lines, the hastati and principes, carried two pila but the third line, the triarii, were armed with spears although not the 20 foot Macedonian style pike you are referring to.

After the reforms of Gaius Marius, (c. 106 BC) the legion was made up of 10 cohorts of heavy infantry armed with pila, gladius and the scutum or oblong shield. Roman commanders generally recruited auxilliary cavalry, skirmisher, archers and slingers in the areas they operated. By the Imperial period, all that changed was the armor as the legionary kit came to include the Lorica segmentata but the armaments remained essentially unchanged until much later.

And ALL weaponry that was used before or since 106 BC, and the formations they were used in, is negligible? That would be about a thousand years of weapons development and use that suddenly needs to be ignored?
Sorry, Bob, but imho that is the very definition of tunnel vision...

BTW: nice pic. But that is a guard. Thus equipped with a guard's weapons. It is not a heavy infantry legionair as he would be kitted out for a battle. If anything, that guard could be described as a light infantry legionair.

Legion organization.

The Romans adopted the phalanx formation for their infantry around 550 BC, but this proved impractical in the hilly terrain of Italy. They evolved a heavy infantry system of smaller 120-man units called maniples, literally a handful. The maniples could be employed in column-like a phalanxes or in lines. The maniples were the basic building blocks of a legion. The number of legions in service started at four and grew as the Empire expanded. A legion was a largely self- sufficient fighting force of light troops, heavy infantry, and cavalry.

gunny wrote:Be a cool atlatl dart---------20' with a Clovis tip.

Minimalist wrote:

Rokcet Scientist wrote:

Minimalist wrote: Um....no.

In the early Republican period the Romans light troops, the velites, were still armed with a couple of pila but wore no armor giving them mobility at the expense of defense. The first and second lines, the hastati and principes, carried two pila but the third line, the triarii, were armed with spears although not the 20 foot Macedonian style pike you are referring to.

After the reforms of Gaius Marius, (c. 106 BC) the legion was made up of 10 cohorts of heavy infantry armed with pila, gladius and the scutum or oblong shield. Roman commanders generally recruited auxilliary cavalry, skirmisher, archers and slingers in the areas they operated. By the Imperial period, all that changed was the armor as the legionary kit came to include the Lorica segmentata but the armaments remained essentially unchanged until much later.

And ALL weaponry that was used before or since 106 BC, and the formations they were used in, is negligible? That would be about a thousand years of weapons development and use that suddenly needs to be ignored?
Sorry, Bob, but imho that is the very definition of tunnel vision...

BTW: nice pic. But that is a guard. Thus equipped with a guard's weapons. It is not a heavy infantry legionair as he would be kitted out for a battle. If anything, that guard could be described as a light infantry legionair.

Roman use of the phalanx died out after the Etruscan period. When they came into contact with the Samnites and other hill tribes of Italy they were forced to adopt their tactics, namely the manipular legion more suited to the terrain than the cumbersome Greek phalanx.

http://www.geocities.com/delerius2001/Rome.htm

Legion organization.

The Romans adopted the phalanx formation for their infantry around 550 BC, but this proved impractical in the hilly terrain of Italy. They evolved a heavy infantry system of smaller 120-man units called maniples, literally a handful. The maniples could be employed in column-like a phalanxes or in lines. The maniples were the basic building blocks of a legion. The number of legions in service started at four and grew as the Empire expanded. A legion was a largely self- sufficient fighting force of light troops, heavy infantry, and cavalry.

The use of such tactics (and the Samnite pilum which the Romans also adopted!) was well established by the Battle of Sentinum in 295 BC which was less than 30 years after the Roman disaster at the Caudine Forks at the hands of those same Samnites. The Romans were still capable of learning from their enemies at that time.

As for the re-enactor...they love their little poses but he is a representative specimen of a legionary of the late first century BC- mid 4th century AD.

the heavy infantry pike phalanx was used by just about every army up until the 18th century.

Realist wrote:The Romans were obviously quick learners; an army of Celts from north of the Alps hammered a Roman army and sacked Rome in the late Fourth century BC (c.330?).

Realist wrote:The Romans were obviously quick learners; an army of Celts from north of the Alps hammered a Roman army and sacked Rome in the late Fourth century BC (c.330?).