Grave goods and why?

[marduk]

the belief in an afterlife came about pretty recently Digit
ita a tool of organised religion
finding a dead neanderthal covered in red ochre and with flowers in his hole doesnt indicate a belief in an afterlife
it just indicates a need for a burial and a custom that accompanied it

heaven and hell, Karma, Sheol all these things are designed to make you behave the Alphas in this life setting the rules (ten usually) to live by and forcing you to conform to their belief system
even governments use religion as a tool
even those governments that claim in their charters that people have freedom of religion don't reflect that in their actions
after all
you think we'd be in Iraq right now if the Iraqis were scottish presbytarians


the fact that you can't see this very clearly doesn't mean you're dumb or ignorant
it just means that like everyone else you have been obeying the rules of the Alphas for so long that you think its entirely natural

face it Digit
you're Brooks Hatlen aren't you

[Digit]

(the belief in an afterlife came about pretty recently Digit
ita a tool of organised religion
finding a dead neanderthal covered in red ochre and with flowers in his hole doesnt indicate a belief in an afterlife
it just indicates a need for a burial and a custom that accompanied it)

Questions.
How do you know?
Why bury a corpse?
What was the custom?
As for being Brooks Hatlen, I wouldn't know. Who is she/he/it ?

[marduk]

How do you know?
Why bury a corpse?
What was the custom?

we have already covered this
you obviously weren't listening then
so i won't bother going into it again now so you can just ask the same questions over and over to yourself in the mirror
im sure at some point youll come up with an acceptable answer that you thought of yourself as you often refuse to listen to any other
bit of a trend with you Digit

[Digit]

(im sure at some point youll come up with an acceptable answer that you thought of yourself as you often refuse to listen to any other
bit of a trend with you Digit)

Good God! I'm trendy at last, only taken me 50 yrs!
Seeing as you are making the statements Steve and I'm only an ignorant Bsc asking the questions, and I don't recall you giving me an explanation now or earlier, I suppose that shall have to come with my own solution.
We'll call it the Digit Effect shall we?

[Forum Monk]

Hey Boy's this is starting to sound a little more like an argument than a discusion.

Well Raven, you started 'em up again. I hope you're happy.

(Don't worry - Marduk will often fight with Digit.. Beagle.. Min.. FM.. Cogs.. Charlie...uh...well, pretty much everyone!)

[Digit]

What Marduk Monk? Never! Where are you Steve, tea break over?

[Forum Monk]

I think the alpha male theory is an interesting explanation as I never thought of the relationship between god and the alpha before. But I think the evolution you suggest is not necessarily correct. As some know, I have some experience around horses and so I witness and have studied alpha behavior first-hand among intelligent animals. It is marked by competition and is largely a strategy for procreation. After all, the alpha gets the females while the other males are relegated to the bachelor herd until such time one makes a challenge. According to your suggestion Marduk, it appears the alpha, in HS populations has evolved into an invisible man in the sky that will bash you if you don't obey. Not true. Alpha behavior among males and females (yes there is usually an alpha fem too) still exists only today we call it sports, academic challenge, bar room machismo, etc. I think Desmond Morris has done many interesting studies on human sexual behavior and this is where the roots of alpha behavior lies.

Religion and belief in god, in my opinion evolved from super natural exerience and the realization that things existed, both visible and invisible that were beyond explanation. You can say what is supernatural then and now is different since we are more knowledable about some things but the glue which attaches man to a god is not fear, it is experiential.

[marduk]

Religion and belief in god, in my opinion evolved from super natural exerience and the realization that things existed, both visible and invisible that were beyond explanation. You can say what is supernatural then and now is different since we are more knowledable about some things but the glue which attaches man to a god is not fear, it is experiential.

you mean things like stars not falling down and the sun coming up every day don't you
so as soon as someone says
hey look
a supernormal person must be controlling that which members of society capitalize on the idea by claiming to be his reprsentative
and you've missed the point
Roy didn't ask how a belief in God originated
he asked how religion came about

Explaining religion away as stupid etc doesn't help us understand its origins.

if you read back through this thread you'll see several times Digit claim hes not asking about the origins of religion
so I guess hes just doing that "you don't understand me" or "you don't listen properly" thing again
and at some point he'll voice his opinion and it will of course be the only correct answer
like I already said
its the Digit effect
in many ways its a lot like chaos theory except on a smaller more welsh kind of scale

[Digit]

Eh? All along I've been on about how religion started Steve, the only time I've strayed from that is when you've led me up the garden path, remember this?

(Okay Steve, let's hear it. And I do not mean how primative religion evolved into organised religion as I said in earlier posts)

Monk, my view exactly.
Now you can have a go at TWO of us Steve!

[Charlie Hatchett]

(Don't worry - Marduk will often fight with Digit.. Beagle.. Min.. FM.. Cogs.. Charlie...uh...well, pretty much everyone!)

Our own in house Devil's Advocate...

[Forum Monk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

Definition of religion
There are many definitions of religion, and most have struggled to avoid an overly sharp definition on the one hand, and meaningless generalities on the other. Some have tried to use formalistic, doctrinal definitions and others have tried to use experiential, emotive, intuitive, valuational and ethical factors.

Sociologists and anthropologists see religion as an abstract set of ideas, values, or experiences developed as part of a cultural matrix. Primitive religion was indistinguishable from the sociocultural acts where custom and ritual defined an emotional reality.

Other religious scholars have put forward a definition of religion that avoids the reductionism of the various sociological and psychological disciplines that relegate religion to its component factors. Religion may be defined as the presence of a belief in the sacred or the holy. For example Rudolf Otto's "The Idea of the Holy," formulated in 1917, defines the essence of religious awareness as awe, a unique blend of fear and fascination before the divine. Friedrich Schleiermacher in the late 18th century defined religion as a "feeling of absolute dependence."

The Encyclopedia of Religion describes religion in the following way:[2]

"In summary, it may be said that almost every known culture involves the religious in the above sense of a depth dimension in cultural experiences at all levels — a push, whether ill-defined or conscious, toward some sort of ultimacy and transcendence that will provide norms and power for the rest of life. When more or less distinct patterns of behaviour are built around this depth dimension in a culture, this structure constitutes religion in its historically recognizable form. Religion is the organization of life around the depth dimensions of experience — varied in form, completeness, and clarity in accordance with the environing culture."

Whats the difficulty of defining religion? Basically its hard to quantify the social-cultural aspects from the personal aspects. There are many people who believe in god for example, who don't follow any organized religion and are not bound by its tenets. Are they religious? What do you guys mean by religion? The ritualistic and codified social behavior delineated by a common set of beliefs in a diety or the practice of worshipping a god, or simply belief in a god?

[Digit]

Steady Charley, he'll want paying for his services next.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Steady Charley, he'll want paying for his services next.

[Digit]

Trouble with all that Monk it still doesn't explain how it all started, I think you earlier descriptioin seems logical to me. I see it as basically an attempt by early man to explain what he couldn't explain in any other way.
At that point the the Alpha Male, Big White Chief, Big Wig, takes over and formalises it to maintain his position. After that the Big Wigs just carry on getting bigger.

[Forum Monk]

That being the case, then you and Marduk agree.
This can only mean that the end of the world is near and so I advise you all to prepare to meet your maker.