Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

[Minimalist]

Greeks took several thousand as slaves, many of whom later regained their freedom but remained.

Did anyone consider "slaves" to be citizens of anything in the ancient world?

[Minimalist]

“In this sign you shall conquer” was not a statement of faith inspired by a supreme god. It was Constantine’s political “aha” moment: “This is how to create a united, conquering empire.”

Well...that's how later xtians told the story, anyway. Who knows. What Constantine did was reward his political supporters and later side with the group which gave him the most control of the population. Constantine was a thug. I doubt he had a religious bone in his body.

[Minimalist]

But Persians didn’t want Jews to become a conquering empire.

There was precious little chance of that happening. Yehud remained a very loyal vassal of the Persians right up until Alexander sent them and the rest of the region a message with his capture of Tyre. Their later delusions of grandeur developed when the Hasmoneans actually became a regional player for a short period of time...before dynastic squabbles left them targets for everyone else in the region.

[Minimalist]

My point? The Babylonian exile is most unlikely to have weakened the faith,

But, that assumes that there was a "faith" to have been weakened, Dig. That is the question. If the whole thing is a later creation then it doesn't matter.

[Digit]

Depends somewhat on definition Min, I may not follow the faith, but I still have much of the culture.
I will greet another Jew with 'Shalom', for example, if I entered the home of a Frum Jew i would still honour the Mezuzah, and if wre to enter a Shule I would still cover, not for me but out of respect for others.
Culture runs deep.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Culture runs deep.

Agreed, but does it begin in 1500BC or 500 BC. That is the question. To people living today, the difference is insignificant.

[Minimalist]

A little experiment here, gang. Digit reported by PM that this post had vanished after I quoted from it. I am copying it and re-posting here.

If anyone else can still see it on Page 5, please let me know.

by Digit » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:36 am
I am a secular Jew. I have had little contact either with family or Jewish culture for almost 60 yrs.
BUT STILL I AM A JEW!!!
Many European Jews opposed the return to Israel fearing that the establishment of a Jewish state would loosen the tight knit religious and cultural bonds that have been the glue of my people for many many years, and in some ways, that is exactly what has happened.
One of the complaints by the Nazis was that we were Jews first and Germans second, despite many German Jews serving in WW1, both arguments have some basis in history.
My point? The Babylonian exile is most unlikely to have weakened the faith, our isolation, legally in most European countrys till recently, only served to turn us inward, this isolation, complete with its own language, made us what we are.
I doubt that the Exile would have been very different.

Roy.

[Digit]

Yep it's there Min. This isn't the first time it has happened, it seems to take a long time to get from me to the forum on occasion. Not just this forum either, I am on the slowest Broad Band in the UK apparently, and that's official!

Roy.

[Minimalist]

If I were you, I'd blame the Labour Party for that!

[Digit]

Oh I do, I do! The weather's not good either!

Roy.

[jw1815]

I am a secular Jew. I have had little contact either with family or Jewish culture for almost 60 yrs.
BUT STILL I AM A JEW!!!

Yes, I noticed an earlier comment of yours about having Jewish heritage.

I might be called a "secular" Christian. I don't believe the religion, but was raised in it, so I feel like I straddle two worlds because I understand the religious perspective I was raised in, even though I don't accept it. I know people who call themselves "Presbyterian atheists" or "Catholic atheists," meaning that early training often leaves a mark long after they leave the faith. Sometimes that mark is hostility toward the religious training. Sometimes it's understanding of it in a "Let's just agree to disagree" attitude. I can see why it's meaningful to those who practice it, but just can't get that meaning out of it for myself.

Many European Jews opposed the return to Israel fearing that the establishment of a Jewish state would loosen the tight knit religious and cultural bonds that have been the glue of my people for many many years, and in some ways, that is exactly what has happened.

One of the complaints by the Nazis was that we were Jews first and Germans second, despite many German Jews serving in WW1, both arguments have some basis in history.

My point? The Babylonian exile is most unlikely to have weakened the faith, our isolation, legally in most European countrys till recently, only served to turn us inward, this isolation, complete with its own language, made us what we are.

I doubt that the Exile would have been very different.

Roy.

I have some Jewish relatives through marriage. I've heard concerns expressed that, in America, without the degree of isolation and suppression that's existed in some other countries, it's easier to lose Jewish identity through assimilation. That sometimes leads to a re-examination of what being Jewish means.

Anyway, I'm sure you're right about Jews maintaining an identity during exile. Since Judaism originated as both a tribal and religous identity, I think there's a stronger feeling of identification with it, even for secular Jews, than for people whose religion is based on ideological belief alone. That was driven home to me during a discussion with the rabbi and board of a Reformed congregation while doing a research paper on Judaism for a history of western religions course. There's a perspective in Judaism that sometimes non-Jews - especially those of Christian cultures, even if they're not religious themselves - don't comprehend. Like the idea that you're a Jew from birth and always a Jew, needing no re-conversion to return to practicing the religion, even after embracing atheism or a different faith. It can be a personal and cultural identity, even for those who don't practice the religion.

When I speak of influences on Judaism from other cultures and religions, I'm not suggesting that Jews lost their identity during periods of exile or during early periods of tribal nomadism. I'm only saying that, like other cultures and religions, Judaism has absorbed elements into its central core of identity from other people closely associated with its history.

[Digit]

Like the idea that you're a Jew from birth and always a Jew, needing no re-conversion to return to practicing the religion, even after embracing atheism or a different faith. It can be a personal and cultural identity, even for those who don't practice the religion.

A stance that even my good lady cannot comprehend, unfortunately.
A Russian poet once commented that for as long as their was anti semitism he would stand and say, 'I am a Jew!'
I am totally assimilated into British society and am at ease with most cultures, but I do have difficulty with religious Muslims and Frum Jews for one and the same reason, I despise intensely their treatment of women as second class people!
And on the subject that culture runs deep Min, one of the things that most astonishes me about my previous paragraph is that, largely, the women not only accept the situation but actively support it!
I pass!

Roy.

[Minimalist]

All religion, at its heart, consists of some guy saying to another guy:

"Psst, hey buddy. Listen. God told me to tell you that he wants you to do things his way. Oh, and God also said to give me some money so I can tell others about his laws."


Those laws always provide for the oppression of women. Its one of the few things that religions agree upon....probably because they are always written by men. Where's Ish? What we need is her mother goddess or something!

[Rokcet Scientist]

All religion, at its heart, consists of some guy saying to another guy:

"Psst, hey buddy. Listen. God told me to tell you that he wants you to do things his way. Oh, and God also said to give me some money so I can tell others about his laws."

Those laws always provide for the oppression of women. Its one of the few things that religions agree upon....probably because they are always written by men. Where's Ish? What we need is her mother goddess or something!

No! If we'd need a God at all, we'd need a hermaphrodite God! To get rid of this stupid male/female rivalry.

[Minimalist]

No, no...women are far more civilized.... although you do have to give a nod to the guys who thought up having priestesses perform "holy" sex rites in some temples. Now THAT was a stroke of genius!