Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

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Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

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I've just finished Rene Salm's Myth of Nazareth which is a primarily archaeological discussion of the so-called "evidence" for Nazareth at the turn of the era. The Franciscan order maintains what is called "the Venerated Area" on a hillside and they are bound and determined to defend the scriptural description of the site come hell or high water. Salm, who is not an archaeologist himself, uses the writings of real archaeologists, including the Franciscan's Fr. Bagatti, to evaluate the finds. Mainly what they have found is a few oil lamps, apparently left behind in tombs carved into the hillside. The tombs are typical Jewish tombs. Would Jews have lived in a cemetery? Probably not. There were two well attested towns to either side of "Nazareth; " Sepphoris and Japhia(Jotapata) the notion that either or both might have made use of the limestone hillside for tombs cannot be dismissed. In general, Bagatti's assertion that the lamps are Hellensitic is a stretch and more likely they are Roman. But so what?

The problem with both sides is that the church insists that the village of "Nazareth" was located on the hillside. Digs in the area have failed to uncover any of the normal detritus of human habitation: building foundations, hearths, garbage middens, etc., etc. The likelihood that there was a "village" (far less a "polis" as Luke claims!) is just about nil.

Salm loudly proclaims this finding but then undercuts his own position by pointing out that no one has ever excavated on the valley floor, which, as he says, would be a far more likely site for a town since it sits on the road between Sepphoris and Japhia which DID exist. Here lies the rub. Nazareth today is a Palestinian city and they have extensively built over the entire area. They have no interest whatsoever in dispelling the notion that Nazareth was the birthplace of Christ because separating xtian tourists from their money is a prime industry in Nazareth and they aren't going to cut their own throats. Barring an amazing change of heart by the Palestinians, serious archaeological work on the valley floor is not going to happen. Which leaves Salm in the position of having trashed the Franciscan's cherished fable but creating a far more reasonable alternative which he can not get verified or even examined.

He does go through the normal litany of non-support for the idea of a town in that spot prior to the 2d century. No mention by Jewish, Greek or Roman sources. Josephus commanding the rebel army in Galilee retreated from Sepphoris when they went over to the Romans and literally had to retreat right through Nazareth because he ended up in Jotapata which he held for a 47 days siege against the Romans until overwhelmed. He notes that "Jotapata" can only be approached from the north because of deep ravines on the other 3 sides and geography and archaeology support that conclusion.

Image

Josephus also mentions that Vespasian's camp was 7 leagues north of Jotapata which would put it basically right on top of "Nazareth" if it had existed. Yet, Josephus never mentions the word in his entire recap of the siege.

Further, early xtian writers never seem to make much of a big deal about Nazareth. Origen, living in the first half of the third century lived in Caesarea but never mentions "Nazareth." Neither do the so-called epistles of Paul which, whether you believe they date from the first century or are second century creations of Marcion, is still significant. That part of the story it seems had not been written by the early 3d century.

Salm also fails to address why a town named Nazareth grew up later and I suspect the answer is fairly simple. Sepphoris had surrendered and enthusiastically supported the Romans. Their future was secure. Jotapata was destroyed in the aftermath of the siege. Once the Roman army had moved on to bigger and better things the idea that the survivors in the area might have looked to rebuild their lives a mile or so north of Jotapata does not seem so outlandish but, without excavations on the valley floor, we aren't ever likely to know!
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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

So Nazareth is another figment of Xtians' imagination. If not an outright lie.
So what else is new? One more biblical lie exposed.

You ought to post this on Arch' board, Min! :lol:
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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

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His head would explode.


But feel free if you're still going over to annoy him. :wink:
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

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Just been having a debate on this sort of thing on Ish's site. Unfortunately it ended with her suspending a poster.
So i'll try here instead.
Jesus was NOT of Nazereth, he was a Nazereen!
The confusion arose with non Jewish writers, forgers, editors etc assuming that a Nazereen originated in Nazereth.
A bit like assuming that an Aborigine has to live in Oz!

Roy.
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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

Post by Minimalist »

Yeah, Dig, it seems that there is much confusion on this issue primarily because of the predominance of Latin/Greek ignorance.

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Nazarene.htm


An original "Jesus the Nazarene" would not require a "Nazareth" to be from. The problem, as showed up in the diggings at Nazareth is that the church is heavily committed to keeping the story (right or wrong) consistent with the way they've been telling it since the 5th century. This gives them a heavy incentive to maintain the status quo.

The problem they face is that if there was no Nazareth in the early first century then "Jesus" cannot have been born there. If he wasn't born there then someone would have to admit that the gospel accounts were either written considerably after the fact OR were amended to make them conform to that story OR both. I suspect they would rather have their fingernails torn out with pliers then admit that.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

Post by Digit »

They have to Min. Modern Christianity is based on Jesus being divine. Something that neither Jesus nor the Nazerenes claimed
The early European Church never made that claim either, but to get anywhere in the Roman world He had to be divine. Ater all Min, the Romans even deified their emperors.
Paul needed to level the playing fied.
The Bible is full of facts that only someone, like myself, with a Jewish back ground would understand.

Roy.
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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

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The emperor actually had power.

This whole 'Essenes as various gnostic groups' bothers me in that no one seems to have paid much attention to them. A brief mention by Pliny the Elder but mainly because they seemed like oddballs by Roman standards and then two comments by Josephus in which he downplays their significance. Tacitus in his run up to the Great Revolt makes no mention of them either. By 66 they were not a significant power-bloc.

I'm not terribly sure that "Paul" was any more real than "Jesus." There is little in the way of historical markers in the epistles and one that there is points to the first century BC. I have a problem with that.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

Post by Digit »

All very true Min, but as I explained on another forum I base my belief that Jesus was real on various clues in the Bible, in exactly the same way that researchers accept Arthur as having a basis in fact.

Roy.
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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

Post by Minimalist »

Dig, you'll never know how many times I've asked christians "what evidence?"


Maybe you'll tell me?

:D
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

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Only as much as in the Arthur stories Min, which leads to belief that Arthur did live.
That is not of course proof.
But my favourite is the wine into water example.
The Church states that Jesus was not married, now at the wedding they run out of wine and his mother basically tells him to sort it out.
In Jewish society the person upon who this would fall would be the groom.
That being so the Bible suggests that Jesus was married.
In the UK if we talk about the Prime Minister we would not say Gordon Brown, simply the 'PM' 'cos we all know to whom we refer.
The same applies to the Bible.
It was written by Jews for a Jewish audience, so in the example I have offered what I have said would automatically be understood. No explanation would be needed.
That's just one example of how Christian writers have either failed to understand or have corrupted the story.
Take your pick.
I agree that is not proof, but little points like this suggest that the story is basically true.

Roy.
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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

Post by Minimalist »

There's a lot there but let's start with the assertion that it was written by "Jews for a Jewish audience." "Matthew" was perhaps written by a Jewish writer but Luke and Mark? These seem to be Greco-Roman writers writing for a wider audience. The point is arguable, though.

Christians will readily grasp at the "historical kernel" explanation but they draw the line when they are then asked if "Osiris" and "Zeus" and "Quetzlcoatl" are also based on historical persons. The point is that there may have been a historical kernel but it is not a requirement. Special Pleading is a stock-in-trade of religion and they have no shortage of it.

For myself, there were so many manifestations of the dying/resurrected vegetation god in the Mediterranean region that jesus ends up merely being the last and the one with the most chrome on the bumper.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

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Granted on all that Min, so let's look at the other end of it.
The early followers made little of any of those claims, plus I gave only one example.
Also I would argue that to ignore the point/s that I can make means you must do the same with Arthur, Osiris etc. If Arthur passes and Osiris doesn't what's the problem?
All the same arguments could at one time have been made against Pilate, till the documentary evidence was eventually found.
Granted to be a 'God' Jesus had to die and be resurrected, but the early followers don't seem to have followed that idea, 'cos they certainly didn't believe him divine.
If they had believed that he did die and was resurrected then logically they would have considered him divine!
Wouldn't you?
The 'Church', as I know you will agree, is a construct by Eusabius, Iraneus and Nicea and has little to do with the early followers, who were Jews.
Even the Crusifixion contains elements that infer that Jesus did not die.
But none of this alters whether or not he existed.
For years the 'Church' persecuted any who failed to follow their dogma, but once the 'Church' lost that power people began to question. As the errors and frauds began to appear the result was a rejection of the complete package.
A bit like saying that because my mum lied about Father Christmas I couldn't believe anything else she said. It is not a logical view.
I see Jesus as an early Ghandi, and he was a man of peace who destroyed an Empire. But I doubt he would have survived for long under Pilate!
Writing fanciful stories about someone Post Mortum does not invalidate their existence.
'Kiss me Hardy' is likely to be something wrongly heard as Nelson was close to death. Can we suppose because there is no evidence that Hardy did kiss him that Nelson was imaginary.
Again it is not logical.

Roy.
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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

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Absolutely, Dig, I have no problem consigning Arthur and Osiris to the "legend" category. The only thing we can say for "Arthur" is that the period in question (5th century AD) was a time of barbarian incursion and to Britain which had been civilized for four centuries it must have seemed like the end of the world. People create "superheroes" in tough times. The 1930's was famous for Superman, Batman, etc. for that very reason.

As for Lord Nelson, we are not limited to one fanciful/misheard story for his existence. That is a significant difference.

Now, as Earl Doherty points out in The Jesus Puzzle, ancient man had little trouble envisioning his gods operating in a "heavenly sphere". They did not think that Osiris or Tammuz or Zeus or Adonis operated on earth. This was the common view of religion until the christians came along and started this stuff about how it actually happened down here... in a conveniently destroyed city in a culture which had been scattered by the Romans. Doherty points out that "Paul" (whether he was first century or second century) was still one of the earliest sources has no knowledge of Mary, Joseph, Nazareth, Pilate, etc. "Paul's" god operates in the same heavenly sphere as all the other gods and it is only with in-depth parsing of words...or outright interpolation....that his writings can be made to say that there was something which actually happened in recent historical times. It's a very interesting little book. If you haven't read it, you should give it a shot.

As far as using the bible to prove the bible my problem with that is that these writings have been tampered with by that same church which had a vested interest in harmonizing the story. Bart Ehrman has made it clear that what we now have is not what was originally written. Would a court allow an edited document to be submitted as evidence?

The earliest non-christian writing we have about them is Pliny the Younger. When a governor in Asia Minor c 110-112 AD he wrote to Trajan about his investigation of christians. Not as religious "criminals" but because they had broken a law regarding private meetings. The issue for the Romans was "sedition" not "religion." Pliny tells us:
But they declared their guilt or error was simply this -- on a fixed day they used to meet before dawn and recite a hymn among themselves to Christ, as though he were a god. So far from binding themselves by oath to commit any crime, they swore to keep from theft, robbery, adultery, breach of faith, and not to deny any trust money deposited with them when called upon to deliver it. This ceremony over, they used to depart and meet again to take food -- but it was of no special character, and entirely harmless. They also had ceased from this practice after the edict I issued -- by which, in accord with your orders, I forbade all secret societies.


Pliny's report is the closest "real time" description we have of christian beliefs that is not dependent on what they say about themselves. I always found the two underlined segments to be most interesting. Pliny could well have run into a Gnostic group but it is unlikely that there was anything other than Gnostic groups at the time. I agree with you that the orthodox version had not been written....yet.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

Post by Digit »

All that you write there is correct Min.
The original Church in Europe was Arian. No death on the cross, no resurrection, no divinity. A simple Prophet.
The Bible you refer to is the Pauline version, a construct.
As regards using the Bible to prove the Bible, I take your point, but we take the Arthurian writings to find out if there was a man behind them.
One common rule for each legend please.
In the original Arthurian legend, not Mallory's Morte de Arthur that most are familiar with, the time is stated as being when starvation and cannibalism stalked the land, when gloom prevailed, with freezing winters and cool damp summers.
One reason why Arthur is believed to relate to true events is that this did happen. It was caused by an eruption in Iceland.
The only written evidence for King Alfred is Bishop Asser, no physical evidence at all, yet his existence is not called into question.
The Arian Church was founded by the original followers of Jesus, not second generation Romans. After Iraneus, Eusabious and Nicea the Church bent every effort into destroying Arianism, the Great Heresy.
On one hand we had the Arian principles that Jesus was human, no death on the cross and no resurrection, on the other the power of Rome!
The Arians lost! The Bible was then compiled by the victors and tailored to fit their ideas, and every attempt was made to destroy those writings that did not support that view.
Fast forward. Do you have and problems with Mohammad as an historical character?

Roy.
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Re: Book Review: The Myth of Nazareth

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Fast forward. Do you have and problems with Mohammad as an historical character?

There is no more evidence for Mohammad than there is for Jesus. There is one Byzantine writing which makes reference to a "prophet among the Saracens" but it does not name him.

Otherwise, its the same old story. Religious writings are claimed to be factual by believers who murder anyone who dares disagree.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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