Africa/Egyptian presence and jewelry in Mesoamerica?

[Cognito]

My problem is what did they bring on the West bound trip?
What did they trade for that copper?

The most logical trade goods would be high-status items such as clothing, coloured glass, bronze arrowheads and knives, etc. - something that the native elites would not possess. Observe what the Phoenicians were trading off the shores of Africa and you'll have your answer.

[Minimalist]

I'm certainly no expert on metallurgy but it seems as if lab analysis should be able to determine the origin of copper. Has anyone ever announced that a European/African copper artifact has a chemical signature which is indicative of an origin in the Upper Mid West of the US?

Where's Digit? We need an engineer!

[kbs2244]

I am 100 percent with you on that idea Min!
I have been following everything I can think of, online and off.
No one "reputable" seems to have any interest in where all the copper went.
Or, from a European point of view, where it came from.

[Minimalist]

It is the responsibility of the proponents of an idea to find evidence to support it.

Zahi Hawass has never done a C14 scan on Howard Vyse's great pyramid graffiti, either. If the pigments only date to the 1830's it would be put a big hole in his argument for construction of the GP by 4th Dynasty Egyptians. Maybe he doesn't want to risk finding out?

[Digit]

Been asleep Min. I haven't heard of it being done but I'm busy checking. Nearly all such ores, at least, can have their origins located by the ratios and types of so called impurities.
What I'm not so certain about is after they have been heated to any signifcant degree, as this almost certainly would vapourise certain materials.
Equally, if an impurity wasn't vapourised and was only in ores from certain restricted areas that should also achieve the desired result.

[Minimalist]

I figured you were the right man for the job.

[Cognito]

What I'm not so certain about is after they have been heated to any signifcant degree, as this almost certainly would vapourise certain materials.

Digit, you are correct. The first step in the process was smelting to remove impurities and concentrate the metal into oxhide or bun forms for transport. Copper ingots and tin must have been more valuable than gold during the Bronze Age since a steady supply of superior weapons could make your Empire.

The impurities removed represent the chemical signature of the ore. Therefore, the only evidence of ancient transatlantic shipment would be a copper ingot shipwreck somewhere between Michigan and the British Isles. Either that, or an ingot dropped overboard in the Great Lakes area. Please start searching and get back to me. Thank you.

[Minimalist]

Ah, the internet.....


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all

ARCHEOLOGISTS have discovered tin in Turkey.

No one is predicting a rush by miners to stake claims or any quick riches to be made on the world's metal markets, for the amount discovered is trifling. But scholars are hailing it as a solution to one of the most enduring mysteries about ancient technology: where did the metalsmiths of the Middle East get the tin to produce the prized alloy that gave the Bronze Age its name?

The new findings could change established thinking about the role of trade and metallurgy in the economic and cultural expansion of the Middle East in the Bronze Age, which ran from about 3000 B.C. to 1100 B.C.

Much closer than sailing across the ocean.

[kbs2244]

It is thought that the Lake Superior copper was shipped both East via the Great lakes and the St Lawrence and South via inland rivers and eventually to Poverty Point in Louisiana.
They whole West shoreline of Lake Michigan is lined with Mounds at transfer points from the lake to the inland rivers.
It is not a long walk.
I grew up fishing and swimming in the Des Plaines river.
It flows South, just West of Lake Michigan, and helps form the Illinois, which goes on to the Mississippi.
At one point in Waukegan, IL near the WI/IL border the Des Plaines is less than 3 miles from a Lake Michigan beach at the mouth of a small creek.

I am not sure if any “Ox Hide” molds have been found in North America.
If so, then the copper would have been melted here before being shipped.
And we may have lost the ability to analyze any ox hides found in Europe.
But the very presence of the molds would be pretty strong evidence of a trans Atlantic trade, since that was the de facto shape of the European trade.

As far as I know, virtually all the copper found in North America has been cold worked.
Nothing molded. Sometimes tempered to regain hardness after being beat into shape.
But that does not take the heat needed to melt and mold.
That may mean it was shipped in an "as found" condition.

[Digit]

Early bronze in Europe was an alloy of Copper and metallic Arsenic, not Tin. Arsenic would have been vapourised during Copper smelting so any significant amounts of arsenic in samples would have been added deliberately.
According to Fell et al the examples of Bronze from the New World are few, but not non-existant. The Inca certainly used Bronze, where did they source their copper, anyone know?
Was their Bronze Cu/Sn or Cu/As?

[Minimalist]

More tin.

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/wcd/Himilco

However, it seems that Pliny can be relied upon when he states that Himilco's aim was 'to explore the outer coasts of Europe'. A later author, the Roman aristocrat Avienus (c.350 AD; or almost nine centuries after Himilco!), quotes Himilco's narrative three times when he describes the Atlantic coast in his poem The sea shore. This corroborates Pliny's words.

Himilco was not the first to sail on the northern Atlantic ocean. Avienus reports that the Tartessians -native iron age Andalusians- visited the Oestrumnidan isles to trade with the inhabitants; later, Carthaginian tradesmen traveled along the same route (Sea shore 113-115). Avienus offers several clues to locate the Oestrumnides: they were at two days' sailing distance from Ireland, and they

were rich in the mining of tin and lead. A vigorous tribe lives here, proud spirited, energetic and skillful. On all the ridges trade is carried on.

This makes it possible to identify the Oestrumnidan isles with Cornwall, the Scilly islands or Brittany. It is difficult to choose between these three possibilities. Cornwall is rich in metal, but cannot be regarded as an archipelago, which is implied in the plural Oestrumnides; the Scilly's are a group of islands, but there were no mines. The most likely candidate is Brittany, which is rich in ore and surrounded by several small islands.

[Digit]

One of the subjects that fascinates me KB is early metallurgy, not the technology, but how the tech came about.
Few metals are found in their native state, and even if they are, there is little about Iron ore, for example, that would decide you to develop Iron smelting.
Copper is found as metallic Copper and could certainly be cold worked, cold working of course hardens it. Copper is frequently found with Arsenic as an 'impurity' and cold worked Arsenic Copper would produce a harder edge than pure Copper, but to produce Arsenic Bronze would require that the correct amount of the Arsenic salt to be added at the right time as well to prevent it boiling off.
And our antecedents were supposed to be dumb!

[Minimalist]

And our antecedents were supposed to be dumb!

That's what the Club says.

[Knuckle sandwhich]

And our antecedents were supposed to be dumb!

That's what the Club says.

If you are referring to archaeologists as "the club," that is only what the dumb ones say.

[Minimalist]

The Club refers to the ones who call the shots in many cases. Stick around here long enough and you'll pick up on the terminology!