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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:01 am
by Guest
Here is a short list of Royal Inscripitons which put the assertion of your unnamed source to the lie
i named the source and the best i can do is write the authors and see what they say.
I suppose he is another desperate bible-thumper, like yourself.
my only question is--- is that list a modern translation with the names filled in for clarity sake or is it an actual text list taken directly from the egyptian? when was it written?

it is not that i don't trust you but i wouldn't be surprised if you tried to pull a fast one just to discredit my source and post a revised edition of the texts or lists.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:02 am
by Guest
it would also be nice to know where you got the list from. at least i put the book's title and author's name along with pg # in the post so you know i am not making this stuff up.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:10 am
by Minimalist
archaeologist wrote:
Jesus was a compilation of many ancient gods. None of them existed, either
i am sure you will provide proof to back up this claim...


Here you go.....choke on this for a while.

His scholarship is at least as good as anything you have ever posted....probably better.



http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
While the possibility exists that an actual Jesus lived, a more likely possibility reveals that a mythology could have arrived totally out of earlier mythologies. Although we have no evidence for a historical Jesus, we certainly have many accounts for the mythologies of the Middle East and Egypt during the first century and before that appear similar to the Christ saviour story.
The Egyptian mythical Horus, god of light and goodness has many parallels to Jesus. [Leedom, Massey] For some examples:

Horus and the Father as one
Horus, the Father seen in the Son
Horus, light of the world, represented by the symbolical eye, the sign of salvation.
Horus served the way, the truth, the life by name and in person
Horus baptized with water by Anup (Jesus baptized with water by John)
Horus the Good Shepherd
Horus as the Lamb (Jesus as the Lamb)
Horus as the Lion (Jesus as the Lion)
Horus identified with the Tat Cross (Jesus with the cross)
The trinity of Atum the Father, Horus the Son, Ra the Holy Spirit
Horus the avenger (Jesus who brings the sword)
Horus the afflicted one
Horus as life eternal
Twelve followers of Horus as Har-Khutti (Jesus' 12 disciples)

According to Massey, "The mythical Messiah is Horus in the Osirian Mythos; Har-Khuti in the Sut-Typhonian; Khunsu in that of Amen-Ra; Iu in the cult of Atum-Ra; and the Christ of the Gospels is an amalgam of all these characters."

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:05 am
by Guest
Here you go.....choke on this for a while.
where do you think they got the idea from anyways?

well i think the following will tie in some. taken again from 'Archaeology & the New testament' by John McRay pg. 154-5 (1991)

"Although archaeology has unearthed little that relates directly to Jesus, it contributes to our understanding of the Gospels through references topeople, events and places associated with him. Some recent archaeological evidence has shed new light on an old and vexing problem relating to the birth of Jesus. according to Luke 2:2, Jesus was born during the time when a census was being conducted by Quirinius, govenor of Syria. Since Jesus was born during the lifetime of Herod the Great, who died in 4 B.C. , this Quirinius cannot be the one whose census was dated by Josephus to a.d. 6...The census to which Luke refers, both in his gospel andin acts 5:37, have been illuminated by discoveries of ancient papyrus census forms. The sequence of known dates for the census clearly demonstrates that one was taken in the empire every 144 years.There is a form inthe British Museum dated by George Milligan and Adolf Deissmann to a.d. 104. Although we have nothing as yet from the years 90 and 76, there is one from 62. Another is dated by Milligan to 48 and yet another dates to 34...Acts 5:37 and Josephus in Antiquities refer to another in the year 6, to which year B.P.Grenfall and A.S. HUnt date Oxyrhynchus papyrus 256. Finally Tertullian records a census when Sentius sarurninus (9-6 b.c.) was govenor of Syria which would have been in the year 9 b.c. according to the 14 year cycle established by the the dated papyrus. This census suggests the possibility of an earlier date for the birth of Jesus than is commonly assumed...
...It is clear that jesus was born during an official imperial decree of Caesar Augustus...what is not clear is whether the census noted by Luke was partof the cycle or was a special one. The archaeological data seems to indicate an ordinary imperial census.

Two census orders that have been found show an interesting correlation with the wording of the birth narrative of jesus. {i will only quote the first one} One, British Museum papyrus 904, is from the year a.d. 104:

Gaius Vibius Maximus, prefect of Egypt [says]: Seeing that the time has come for the house to house census, it is necessary to compel all those who for any cause whatsoever are residing out of their provinces to return to their own homes that they may both carry out the regular order of the census and may also attend diligently to the cultivation of their allotments."

notice this decree was written well after the time that Luke wrote his gospel and the bookof acts. there are those who will try to say different but that would just be too convenient for their dis-belief. seeing thatthis date is later than the biblical account it stands to reason that the Bible is right and has recorded the proper procedure of what took place in those times.

this provides evidence that 'nobelief' dotcom will not consider in their haste to attack the Biblical accounts pertaining to Jesus and who he is. 'nobelief' dotcom has no credible evidence to support their claims nor can they substantiate their arguments while the Bible can.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:57 am
by Minimalist
Much as marduk claims extensive knowledge for Sumeria, you are in MY ballpark when you want to talk about Rome.

First off, McRay is wrong. Archaeology has not turned up "little" that directly relates to Jesus....it has turned up "NOTHING."

Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was appointed Governor of Syria in 6 AD and served for 3 years. As an aside, many christian apologists have tried to concoct a scenario where Quirinius was governor of Syria TWICE in order to get around the obvious contradiction between Luke and Matthew. He was not. In fact, no one ever served as governor of the same province twice in the history of the Roman Empire.

Now, this is HISTORY without any bible nonsense or miracles.

Herod the Great, having been reconfirmed on his throne by Augustus Caesar, ruled until 4 BC. He was a Roman puppet, forbidden from exercising any sort of foreign policy without Roman permission. However, he was able to run his kingdom in whatever way he wanted as long as he paid the tribute the Romans demanded and supplied whatever auxilliary troops the Romans wanted for their army in Syria. At the time of his death his Kingdom was split in 3 among his sons, Herod Antipas (in the north,) Phillip in the south, and Archelaus in Judea.

This situation lasted for ten years. In 6 AD the rule of Archelaus had become so abhorrent to the Jews (Herod's family were Arabs....not Jews) that they petitioned Caesar Augustus to remove Archilaus as king and become a Roman prefecture. Augustus agreed. Archilaus was pensioned off and the first Roman prefect, a man named Coponius, was appointed.
At the same time, Augustus directed his governor of Syria, the aforementined P. Sulpicius Quirinius to conduct a census.

There was never a great decree from Augustus that "all the world was to be taxed." The Romans did not work that way. Taxation was provincially based (direct taxes on Romans were abolished in the second century BC) and thus a census of the newly acquired province was reasonable and would certainly have been known to the Jews who applied to have the king removed. This would not have been any sort of surprise. The appearance of Roman troops in Judea did cause some disturbances which were suppressed by the Romans as the Sanheddrin lacked the military force to do anything about it. In his long reign as Emperor, Augustus did conduct three separate surveys to determine the number of Roman citizens in the Empire, something that they would have been interested in knowing.

In any event, Herod Antipas' kingdom and Phillip's kingdom remained independent puppet states within the Roman Empire. It is ludicrous to suggest that in an effort to complete a tax roll in Judea that the Romans would order citizens of Herod Antipas' kingdom (the fictitious Joseph and Mary of the equally fictitious Nazareth) to travel to Bethlehem in Judea.
In all honesty, the notion that the normally efficient-to-a-fault Romans would send people scurrying all over, thus interrupting the economic health of their empire to complete a census is absurd.

As McRay notes, individual governors of individual provinces did sometimes conduct a census particularly in the later Imperial period when the Roman bureaucracy had grown into a force of its own. The census was an old Roman practice from the early days when citizens were expected to present themselves for military service in classes of soldiers dependent on their wealth. That system ended with the military reforms of Gaius Marius in 105 BC.

No. The idea that Joseph and Mary 'had' to travel to Bethlehem was a plot device to get them to Bethlehem in order to fulfil Jewish scriptural requirements about lineage from the house of David. It is a lie.

Further, there can be no white-washing the contradiction between Luke and Matthew. One has the Wise Men (more later nonsense) seeking out Herod the Great for directions and Herod unleashing the "slaughter of the innocents" (another obvious rip off of the Exodus story wherein the unnamed Pharaoh orders the deaths of Hebrew children!) but Herod died in 4 BC. The other has them travelling out of their own country to participate in a census which could not have occured before 6 AD! If the latter is true it would mean that Jesus was in his 20's by 30AD, not 33 or 34. As Pilate was Prefect for nine years between 26 and 36 this part of the story at least matches but no conclusions about Jesus can be drawn from this. It would be like saying that because Jefferson Davis was a real person it means that Scarlett O'Hara and Rhett Butler were also real people. They were not. They were fictional characters set in a historical novel.

So, you are left with a dilemma. At least one of your precious gospels is completely wrong. Choose!

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:04 pm
by Guest
Publius Sulpicius Quirinius was appointed Governor of Syria in 6 AD and served for 3 years. As an aside, many christian apologists have tried to concoct a scenario where Quirinius was governor of Syria TWICE in order to get around the obvious contradiction between Luke and Matthew. He was not. In fact, no one ever served as governor of the same province twice in the history of the Roman Empire.
yes Mcray discusses that and writes on pg 154 (i skipped this detail):

"...This Quirinius cannot be the one whos census was dated by Josephus to a.d. 6 , 'the 37th year of caesar's defeat of anthonyat Actium [on sept. 2, 31 b.c.]. Jerry Varaman has discovered the name of Quirinius on a coin in micrographic letters, placing him as procounsel of syria and Cilicia from 11 b.c. until after the deathof herod. This evidence contributed by Vardaman supports the view that there were two Quiriniuses, furthermore, he believes Jesus was born in 12 b.c.. "

now in the footnotes concerning Vandarman, he writes on pg. 385 #9 under ch. 5:

"Vandarman sent me his unpublished ms. affirming this date. The ms. is entitled 'the Year of Nativity: was Jesus born in 12 b.c.? a new examination of Quirinius)Luke 2:2) and related problems of New Testament chronology'"
Now, this is HISTORY without any bible nonsense or miracles
but is it correct? history being in the eyes of the historian, we shall see.
Augustus did conduct three separate surveys to determine the number of Roman citizens in the Empire, something that they would have been interested in knowing.
thyer, you cal lthem surveys thus the word 'taxed' would also be legitimate.
In all honesty, the notion that the normally efficient-to-a-fault Romans would send people scurrying all over, thus interrupting the economic health of their empire to complete a census is absurd.
so you are saying that the papyrus in the British museum are wrong?
The other has them travelling out of their own country to participate in a census which could not have occured before 6 AD
read the quote again, Mcray is saying Luke os not referring ot the one in 6 a.d.
If the latter is true it would mean that Jesus was in his 20's by 30AD, not 33 or 34. As Pilate was Prefect for nine years between 26 and 36 this part of the story
which gives a time frame for an earlier birth date for Jesus and still meet pilate in his 30's.
So, you are left with a dilemma.
io am not left with any dileman, just as authors writing about the same topics, use different details as they focus on different aspects of the events, so do the gospel writers. if you want the four writers to be word for word exact, then you are just being unrealistic and applying a double standard.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:32 pm
by Minimalist
I am so glad you mentioned Vardaman....the fact that your pal McRay even mentions him is a clue to the foolishness of his scholarship.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... inius.html

The citation above is very long but the relevant portion is as follows:
Vardaman's Magic "Coin"

Dr. Jerry Vardaman, an archaeologist at the Cobb Institute of Archaeology at Mississippi State University, claims to have discovered microscopic letters covering ancient coins and inscriptions conveying all sorts of strange data that he then uses matter-of-factly to assert the wildest chronology I have ever heard for Jesus. He claims these "microletters" confirm that Jesus was born in 12 B.C., Pilate actually governed Judaea between 15 and 26 A.D., Jesus was crucified in 21 and Paul was converted on the road to Damascus in 25 A.D. This is certainly the strangest claim I have ever personally encountered in the entire field of ancient Roman history. His evidence is so incredibly bizarre that the only conclusion one can draw after examining it is that he has gone insane. Certainly, his "evidence" is unaccepted by any other scholar to my knowledge. It has never been presented in any peer reviewed venue [8.1], and was totally unknown to members of the America Numismatic Society until I brought it to their attention, and several experts there concurred with me that it was patently ridiculous.

Nevertheless, his "conclusions" are cited without a single sign of skepticism by Biblical apologist John McRay, who says "Jerry Vardaman has discovered the name of Quirinius on a coin in micrographic letters, placing him as proconsul of Syria and Cilicia from 11 B.C. until after the death of Herod."[8.2] This actual claim has never been published in any form, but I will address a related published claim by Vardaman, and some background is necessary. I will devote some space to this since, as far as I know, I am the only one who has taken the trouble to debunk this obscure and bizarre claim.

What Vardaman means by "micrographic letters" (he usually calls them "microletters") are tiny letters so small that they cannot be seen or made without a magnifying glass and could only have been written with some sort of special diamond-tipped inscribers. He finds enormous amounts of this writing on various coins supporting numerous theses of his. Vardaman claims that he and Oxford scholar Nikos Kokkinos discovered microletters on coins in 1984 at the British Museum, but Kokkinos has not published anything on the matter. Nevertheless, Vardaman tells us that some coins "are literally covered with microletters...through the Hellenistic and Roman periods"[8.3] and that "whatever their original purpose(s), the use of microletters was spread over so many civilizations for so many centuries that their presence cannot be denied or ignored."[8.4] Such fanatical assertions for an extremely radical and controversial theory that only he advocates, and that has not been proven to the satisfaction of anyone else in the academic community, gives the impression of a serious loss of objectivity. Supporting this conclusion is the fact that he cites one authority in support of his thesis that does not in fact support him, yet he does not qualify this citation for his readers but acts as if this makes his theory mainstream.[8.5]

Apart from the fact that it is totally unattested as a practice in any ancient source and none of the relevant tools have been recovered or ever heard of as existing in ancient times, and it has never been subjected to a professional peer review much less accepted by any expert but Vardaman himself, there are several other reasons to regard this as insanity. First, it is extremely rare to find any specimen of ancient coin that is not heavily worn from use and the passage of literally thousands of years, in which time the loss of surface from oxidation is inevitable and significant. Even if such microscopic lettering were added to these coins as Vardaman says, hardly any of it could have survived or remained legible, yet Vardaman has no trouble finding hundreds of perfectly legible words on every coin he examines. Second, to prove his thesis, Vardaman would at the very least be expected to publish enlarged photographs of the reputed microscopic etchings. Yet he has never done this. Instead, all he offers are his own drawings. Both of these facts are extremely suspicious to say the least. Finally, the sorts of things Vardaman finds are profoundly absurd, and rank right up there with Erich von Däniken's Chariots of the Gods.

Here is a typical example: Image


Notice that this is merely a drawing, not a photograph, and that he gives no indication of scale.[8.6] He never even properly identifies the coin type, and though he quotes the British Museum catalogue regarding it, he gives no catalogue number or citation, so I am unable to hunt down a photograph of it or to estimate its size. But even if among the largest of coins it would not be more than an inch in diameter. Most coins were much smaller. Yet his drawing (left) has a diameter of 4.75" for a scale of at least 5:1 or more, and his blow-up (right) is a little over three-times that, for at least 15:1. That means that his letters, drawn at around a quarter inch in size, represent marks on the original coin smaller than 1/50th an inch, less than half a millimeter.[8.6.5] It would be nearly impossible to have made these marks, much less hundreds of them, and on numerous coins, at minting or afterward (indeed, even the number of men and hours this would require would be vast beyond reckoning), and it would be entirely impossible for them to have survived the wear of time. Yet Vardaman sees them clear as day.

But this is merely the beginning of the madness. Vardaman's quotation of the coin catalogue establishes this as minted by the city of Damascus in the reign of Tiberius, and the coin itself says "LHKT DAMASKWN" or "328th [year] of the Damascenes," referring to its re-establishment as a Greek city by the first Seleucus, in the last years of the 4th century B.C. However, coins minted in Eastern Greek cities did not use Latin letters or words, they used Greek--one can see even from his drawing that the real letters on this coin are Greek, spelling Greek words--yet almost all of Vardaman's "microletters" for some strange reason appear in Latin. Second, and most humorously, all the Latin letters for "J" appear, as Vardaman reproduces them, as modern J's, yet that letter was not even invented until the Middle Ages! If his J's were genuine, they should be the letter I. This alone makes it clear his claims are bogus.

But in case there is any doubt: Vardaman claims to find in these tiny letters the clear statement that the coin was minted in the first year of king Aretas IV in 16 A.D. But Damascus was not a part of the kingdom of Aretas until after the death of Tiberius in 37 A.D. when it was briefly granted to him by Caligula, so Vardaman uses the microletters as evidence that refutes the accepted history. Yet it is a plain contradiction for the minters to boldly date this coin according to their independent Seleucid heritage, and then microscopically reverse that fact and date it by the reign of a recent king. Yet Vardaman doesn't stop there. The microletters tell him all sorts of new facts about the ancient world, like that the full name of the king was Gaius Julius Aretas, and so on. But even more bizarre still:

The most important references on this coin are to "Jesus of Nazareth." He is mentioned frequently, often in titles and phrases found in the New Testament, for example, "Jesus, King of the Jews," "King," "the Righteous One," and "Messiah." Reference to the first year of his "reign" is repeated often...for example, "Year one of Jesus of Nazareth in Galilee [sic]." [8.7]

The absurdity of all this, officially and microscopically inscribed on every coin by the royal mint of the King of the Nabataeans in 16 A.D., stands without need of comment.

Vardaman also "sees" microscopic letters on inscriptions, even though stone, by its roughness and its exposure to weathering, would be even less likely to preserve such markings, even if they had ever been made. Indeed, stones of the day were not polished, making it literally impossible for microscopic letters to be inscribed on them in any visible way. Yet he finds these tiny letters on the very Lapis Venetus inscription (above) showing "that the text dates to 10 B.C., that the fortress Secundus took on Mount Lebanon was Baitokiki, and that the colony mentioned was Beirut."[8.8] All but the last point would be a valuable addition to our historical knowledge, yet he has never published any papers on these claims. More bizarre still, despite several pages of confused text in his later work on how he arrives at this date, he never even says how he gets the date from the microletters. He merely asserts it over and over again,[8.9] and then appends an unnumbered page with some rough remarks about how his microletters date every office of Secundus by the years from the founding of the Beirut colony in 15 B.C. One could write volumes on the weirdness he finds in his microletters (like the name of the Jewish rebel Theudas on the Lapis Venetus, calling him the king of the Scythians![8.95]). But I think it is clear enough that this is all nonsense on stilts.

Now for the punch line. There is no Quirinius coin. McRay's reference is to an unpublished paper that no doubt comes up with more complete nonsense about Quirinius in the reading of random scratches on some coin or other, twisted into letters by what must be a chronic mental illness. But Vardaman hasn't even published this claim. Instead, almost a decade later, when he did present a lecture on the matter, his paper on the date of Quirinius, though over 20 pages in length, never mentions this coin that apparently McRay was told about. Instead, a date of 12 B.C. is arrived at using nonexistent microletters on an inscription. So we can dismiss this claim of Vardaman's and McRay's without hesitation.

To borrow marduk's line, this is pseudoscience of a particularly unbelievable kind. McRay repeats any foolish thing that Vardamann tells him and you buy it hook, line and sinker. To repeat:
His evidence is so incredibly bizarre that the only conclusion one can draw after examining it is that he has gone insane. Certainly, his "evidence" is unaccepted by any other scholar to my knowledge. It has never been presented in any peer reviewed venue [8.1], and was totally unknown to members of the America Numismatic Society until I brought it to their attention, and several experts there concurred with me that it was patently ridiculous.

The fact that you are so desperate that you accept "evidence" of this sort really tells me all I need to know about you.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:37 pm
by Minimalist
read the quote again, Mcray is saying Luke os not referring ot the one in 6 a.d.

Then, McRay is an asshole. More than that, he is a desperate asshole. The Romans would not have run a census while it was not governed directly by Rome. Period. End of story.

It is not as if we do not know the identities of the previous Roman governors of Syria. We have the whole list.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:39 pm
by Minimalist
so you are saying that the papyrus in the British museum are wrong?

No. You and your cohorts (Roman word!) are mis-applying documents from the province of Egypt (key...'papyrus') to the whole world. You have absolutely no understanding of the administration of the Roman Empire.

You may have to read the whole article...at least it will keep you out of trouble for a while.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:43 pm
by Minimalist
if you want the four writers to be word for word exact, then you are just being unrealistic and applying a double standard.

So 'God' does not know what he is talking about? These are 4 made up stories, written by different authors for different audiences at different times. They do not agree with each other because they are discussing a fictional person and they were free to invent any details they wanted.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:04 pm
by Guest
Nevertheless, his "conclusions" are cited without a single sign of skepticism by Biblical apologist John McRay, who says "Jerry Vardaman has discovered the name of Quirinius on a coin in micrographic letters, placing him as proconsul of Syria and Cilicia from 11 B.C. until after the death of Herod."[8.2] This actual claim has never been published in any form,
this actually does bother me a lot, i may have to write him a letter concerning this support but i will with hold comment till further research is done.
The fact that you are so desperate that you accept "evidence" of this sort really tells me all I need to know about you
does it now? maybe all it says is that i placed to high of trust in an evangelical whom i thought would not make this kind of reference without good research. but then again, given your source, infidels.org i would highly suspect their scholarship as well as their bias in reporting certain things.
The Romans would not have run a census while it was not governed directly by Rome. Period. End of story.
you could be surprised as your penchent for disproving the Bible and for making statements inthe finality tend to lead you astray. since your article references a stone tablet translation, with the date suspect, it is highly possible that a census went out but christianity does not depend on a date, if it did, it would be easily manipulatable and as McRay says, there could have been a special census taken.

we shall see
They do not agree with each other because they are discussing a fictional person and they were free to invent any details they wanted.
believe what you want, iwill stick with the Bible as it does not err and i am sure something is missinghere and i willdo some other research.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:06 pm
by marduk
christianity does not depend on a date
so you've given up on BC and AD then
:twisted:

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:17 pm
by Guest
i just said i prefered it, the initials mean very little.


What Vardaman means by "micrographic letters
when i read these words in McRay's book, it did bother me and i ignored my feelings. i do not know why he did that but i will investigate it.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:20 pm
by marduk
i just said i prefered it, the initials mean very little.
they mean before christ and anno domini Arch
surely you knew that
:twisted:

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:30 pm
by Minimalist
i do not know why he did that but i will investigate it.
Insanity seems to be a valid reason.