Written sources to Trojan war?

Pippin · Post by **Pippin** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:37 am

Hi

Im listening to a podcast of the complete Odyssey and Illiad at the moment and are wondering what more sources that we have to the war. The stories in the two long poems doesnt tell everyting, but still there are more information about the prehistory in one of the translations i have on the shelve.

Are there other ancient poems or stories about the war?

Kim

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:20 am

Not that I know of. Archaeology has found a city which suffered through several devastations but cannot conclusively support the poems.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:16 am

The Aeneid has a few references to it also.

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:46 am

Homer lived about 800 years after the battle of Troy, if it happened, which I believe it did.

I have been to Hersalick when I was a child. Not really much to see there...No real proof

If you can believe what you see on History channel....The original Greek form of writing was invented to record the poems of Homer, which wee handed down orally between the Trojan War and the time when they were recorded from Homer 800 years later, so there would be no prior written record. Its not like there may be written records, and we haven't found them yet. There just aren't any.

Someday there may be physical archaeological evidence, but what would really prove it?

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:54 am

which I believe it did.

I believe it did also 'Cuda. I'm a big believer in oral tradition.

Pippin · Post by **Pippin** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:07 pm

Hi

I dont want proff, i vant more ancient hero stories.

Pippin

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:19 pm

i vant more ancient hero stories.

As I said Pippin, try the "Aeneid".

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:20 pm

Barracuda wrote:
If you can believe what you see on History channel....The original Greek form of writing was invented to record the poems of Homer, which wee handed down orally between the Trojan War and the time when they were recorded from Homer 800 years later, so there would be no prior written record. Its not like there may be written records, and we haven't found them yet. There just aren't any.

and if you can believe linguists

Historically, the Greek alphabet emerged several centuries after the fall of Mycenaean civilization and consequent extinction of its Linear B script, an early Greek writing system. Linear B is descended from Linear A, which was developed by the Minoans, whose language was probably unrelated to Greek; consequently the Minoan syllabary did not provide an ideal medium for the transliteration of Greek language sounds. The Greek alphabet we recognize today arose after the illiterate Greek Dark Ages — the period between the downfall of Mycenae (c. 1200 B.C.) and the rise of Ancient Greece, which begins with the appearance of the epics of Homer, around 800 B.C., and the institution of the Ancient Olympic Games in 776 B.C

in other words
the history channel is once again talking out of its ass.

Someday there may be physical archaeological evidence, but what would really prove it?

the battle of Troy is a greatly exaggerated poem
it is not a factual account
do you really believe that the greeks besieged Troy for ten years and then one morning apparently packed up and left leaving behind a wooden horse as a tribute just large enough to contain a squad of soldiers with full toilet facilities and the Trojans said

stupid trojans wrote:hey thats a nice gift lets pull it inside our impregnable walls

also you might check the archaeological records
The site now known as troy did not have walls that would have withstood a ten year siege

I'm a big believer in oral tradition

yeah me too

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:24 pm

I think it more likely that "Troy" or whatever it was called was done in by The Sea Peoples. The timing is about right.

Now, there is a significant school of thought that holds that the Sea Peoples were Greek, at least in part. So...what better way to make your ancestors appear to be less of a bunch of barbarians than to declare them "heroes?"

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:28 pm

Now, there is a significant school of thought that holds that the Sea Peoples were Greek

the sea peoples date from 1300bce
so they would have needed time travel technology to "do in" troy

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:32 pm

Homer calls these people the Acheans. Like the Aegean sea islands. Yep, these people were Greek.

Although greatly exaggerated, like many ancient oral traditions, the kernel of truth is there.

I think that the more exaggerated a written story is, the origin of the story is more ancient. There is probably a direct proportionality there.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:40 pm

I think that the more exaggerated a written story is, the origin of the story is more ancient. There is probably a direct proportionality there

I agree
now take that reasoning and apply it to the bible and the vedas

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:54 pm

Sieges are normally sucessfull only in a few cases, and medieval ones usually resulted in starving the place into submission or giving up.
Allowing for exageration there is no mention in the poems to starvation at work in Troy and it was suggested in the past the Greeks were not able to cut off Troy from regular supplies from the hinterland.
IF that is so the 10 yrs is possible if the Greeks wanted to stick it out, in any case, there is no suggestion in Homer that every Greek was there for a continuous 36000+ days.
As for the Horse? Not reading Greek what is the original word, and even if it is 'horse', would they have meant what today is meant by the word.
In England the generic 'horse' is, and has, been applied to many non-equine devices.

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:08 pm

The battle of Troy is a greatly exaggerated poem it is not a factual account do you really believe that the greeks besieged Troy for ten years and then one morning apparently packed up and left leaving behind a wooden horse as a tribute just large enough to contain a squad of soldiers with full toilet facilities and the Trojans said

Well, I totally agree! The story was romanticized then, as it is now. Ever watch the movie?

The idea that the war was fought over Helen is ridiculous!

But it makes total sense to me that two major citystates on either side of the Aegean would war for economic superiority in the region!

When you look at a map of the Aegean you can see that a war was almost inevitable. There is an obvious trading relationship there. Sooner or later one side or the other will at some time see conquest as more profitable than trade.

That has gone on thru much of recorded history, such as the Ottoman oppression of Greece, and continues to this day in the Turkish occupation of Cypress.

I grew up in Izmir, Turkey on the Aegean coast. Its been going on so long that Greeks and Turks are considered by many to be "natural enemies"

I am not sure I believe in such a thing, but there is a very long history of conflict between the peoples of these lands, even when the people living there change!

ravenwing5910 · Post by **ravenwing5910** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:41 pm

The plays by Euripides and Sophocles have some reference to the war, however these are simply dramatic plays, and so may contain little if any history (since I believe Homer's Epic is in fact history). Euripides wrote "The Trojan Women", "Iphigenia Among the Taurians" and " Iphigenia at Aulis" (Iphigenia being the daughter that Agamemnon sacraficed). Sophocles wrote "Ajax" and "Philoctetes" (a character abandoned on an island, and retrieved because the bow of Heracles was needed to overthrow Troy). I must say that these are probably as historically accurate as our modern movies are.