pilfering

stan · Post by **stan** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:12 pm

Some acquaintances of mine were in Italy a few years back and they found a Roman artifact on the ground somewhere, and brought it back to the US. They found it in field outside a town on the coast near Rome, in a field littered with old bricks, stones, and so on. When I chided them about taking it,
they said, "Oh, there is lots of stuff like this over there."

I'll describe it, and I would like everyone on this forum to rate this archaeological
"crime" on a scale of 0 to 10, with 0 being insignificant and 10 being
heinous.

It is one half of a mold for casting a metal
spearhead. It is of gray stone or ceramic, about the size of an ordinary brick, and you can the shape of the spearhead clearly in it.

What do you think?

Post by **Minimalist** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:55 pm

"Stealing" implies that someone had possession of it. What you describe is that this thing was laying around in the trash and they were observant enough to spot it.

I suppose it would depend on what the laws are in Italy governing discovery/ownership of ancient artifacts. I have no idea what those might be.

My impression is that this is not The Elgin Marbles, we're talking about.

I give it a 1.

Post by **Minimalist** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:03 pm

I don't think the editing makes a difference to my answer.

Archaeologists routinely find and return with artifacts from other cultures. The museums of the world are full of them.

I don't think it is possible to answer your question in a legal sense without knowing what Italian law has to say on the matter.

From a moral point of view the question is less clear. What makes something valuable? The fact that a stone lies around for 2000 years with no one picking it up would seem to argue against the item being of any great value.

stan · Post by **stan** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:40 pm

OK, BOb. Thanks for your opinion.
I look forward to reading the others.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:50 am

If you consider an artifact in another country or region important enough to pick up, then, in my opinion, you also accept the responsibility to keep it 1) in good shape, and 2) available for research by 3rd parties, and 3) to return it if so asked. After all, it isn't, culturally, yours. Obviously you then retain good records, photos, possibly non-destructive samples, even replica's. But the original ought to go back to where it came from.
Including the Elgin Marbles.

So, as long as your acquaintances keep to those 'rules', there is no archeological crime. Score: 0.
Conversely, if they don't honor those rules, I rate this heinous archeological crime a 10.
Naah, decapitation is better.

Just my 2 cents.

Leona Conner · Post by **Leona Conner** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:21 pm

One thing wasn't mentioned. How old is the object? It could have been a mold used by someone making their own arrowheads in the middle ages for all we know. But I'll agree with what the others said on this, without more information I'll rank it around 1.

Just watched a program on the Three Gourges Dam and they were talking about the problem China is having with looters. I usually think of this as highly criminal, but if the Chinese government is willing to bury thousands of years of history under 700+ feet of water, then maybe the looters can save something, even if for the wrong reason. Even the archaeologists that are working franticly are only digging for the artifacts because they don't have enough time to do a through research.

Frank Harrist · Post by **Frank Harrist** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:53 am

The artifact should be recorded before it is taken. If these people aren't archaeologists then they just destroyed evidence. It can not be dated by context. I'm sure they think they could walk right back to the place they found it, but I'm also sure that they could not do so. Whatever information could have been gleaned from this object is lost to the local archaeologists, because this piece of the puzzle was removed thousands of miles from it original location. Artifacts should not be moved unless properly recorded by a qualified person. I give it a 10. Shame on those folks. It's people like that who destroy sites. If every tourist took that attitude there would be nothing left to study in a very short time. Bad tourists!

stan gilliam · Post by **stan gilliam** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:01 pm

Thanks for your opinions...
Can we have more? gunny? linguist? guests?

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:33 pm

When you read about some of the excesses of early "archaeologists" such as Howard Vyse using dynamite inside the Great Pyramid, the actions of a couple of tourists picking up a rock don't seem so bad.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:43 pm

[quote="Minimalist"][...]the actions of a couple of tourists picking up a rock don't seem so bad.[/quote]

True. But they DO look very ignorant.
I wonder which is worse: malice or stupidity.

Frank Harrist · Post by **Frank Harrist** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:48 pm

Minimalist wrote:When you read about some of the excesses of early "archaeologists" such as Howard Vyse using dynamite inside the Great Pyramid, the actions of a couple of tourists picking up a rock don't seem so bad.

Yeah, but we're suppossed to know better now.

Frank Harrist · Post by **Frank Harrist** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:40 pm

Minimalist wrote:When you read about some of the excesses of early "archaeologists" such as Howard Vyse using dynamite inside the Great Pyramid, the actions of a couple of tourists picking up a rock don't seem so bad.

If it's ok for a couple of tourists to pick up a couple rocks and every couple of tourists picks up a rock then before long the whole site is spread out all over the world and no info can be gotten from it at all. You can't say it's ok sometimes because then it's ok all the time. Where does it stop? A head from a broken statue is just a rock, but it's a very important rock. Where do you draw the line? You draw the line at zero. Don't pick up artifacts! I guarantee you that if they had been caught they would have been prosecuted to the fullest. People jealously guard their cultural heritage and they should. I know those people who picked up the artifact didn't think it was important, and it may not be in and of itself but as a piece of the whole puzzle it is important. Besides that it is theft. Just as sure as the Elgin marbles were stolen, so was that small artifact.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:44 pm

If you're tempted to pick up such a 'rock', remember, you can do FAR better than that: leave it and document it. Take good pictures from every angle (so easy in this digital age). The more the better. And of its environment. Measure everything. Note the location, the time and nearby landmarks precisely (who doesn't have GPS these days?). Write a report on what you found, how you found it, when you did, and what you did. Illustrate well with photos, sketches and other graphics (a picture paints a thousand words). And submit (digital) copies of this scientifically complete record to universities and/or museums interested in this field of archaeology.
Then you'd show you are REALLY interested in the significance of that 'rock'.
Gets you off the streets too. And into a serious hobby.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:00 pm

Gentlemen....look at the description given:

They found it in field outside a town on the coast near Rome, in a field littered with old bricks, stones, and so on.

This is hardly someone picking up statues in the Valley of the Kings or the Roman Forum.

Leona Conner · Post by **Leona Conner** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:16 pm

There's a farm not far from my place, that every spring when the farmer plows his fields the kids are waiting to run all over it to gather the arrowheads. Seems that he plows up quite a bit of broken pottery, arrowheads and other unknown stuff. Does this mean that the kids have to take pictures and document everything? If that's the case the poor farmer would never get his sowing done and they would probably still be going over the rubble from several years ago.

Archaeologica.org

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