Early Sailors

[Digit]

Must have been sometime ago Min, the price has gone up!

[Rokcet Scientist]

. . . long distance rafting, and till I see some evidence . . .

Rafting to Anacapa Island – 10 miles max – is not "long distance rafting"!

This is "long distance rafting". And it works even in the wrong direction:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyer ... Expedition

[Digit]

When you've done the 10 miles of paddling come back and see me!

[Minimalist]

Must have been sometime ago Min, the price has gone up!

Damned inflation.

[Barracuda]

RS, the water temps in southern California can be as warm as 65 degrees in the summer. I thought water temps in the English Channel were in the 50's.

I think the argument about "rafts" depends on how you define raft. If you define the Kon Tiki as a raft, then its proven to cover long distances on the open ocean. . But I wonder when the sail came into play...

I've seen all sorts of strange craft on the water in my days. Its obvious that to get to the Channel Islands, or Cyprus, some sort of water craft have existed much further back than we have traced them so far...So we have no idea as to the design.

The natives in Peru still make boats out of Tule Reeds. They use them to fish offshore. They have relatively sleek lines, and the locals sometimes surf them onto the beach standing up. Maybe there were the original surfers, but that would be sacrilegious here in California.

My real point here is that I think much of the initial exploring was done by very ballsy solo guys in very small, very primitive, water Craft. I envision a cross between a surfboard and a dugout canoe. When they discovered resources, they returned to spread the word, and the some of the rest of the community followed. Maybe because times got hard back home, or because of rivalries.

Speaking of resources! The Channel Islands and ancient Cyprus have one very strange thing in common! Pygmy Elephants! The subject article noted that the orignal explorers on Cyprus came hunting Pygmy Elephants. The Channel Islands had Pygmy Mammoth. They supposedly died out about 13,00 years ago, which is about the first edvidence of human inhabtants!

Maybe ancient surfers were really jonsing for some baby back elephant ribs after a long day out on the break!

[Digit]

Thanks Cuda, some logic returns to the debate.
Kon Tiki used a sail to demonstrate that Polenisians could have sailed across the Pacific as I recall. Sailed, not paddled.
Again, as I recall, they 'drifted' along the Humboldt current, 'drifted'.
There is also of course a little more to rigging a sail than hoisting your shirt on a broom handle and the Polenisian's trips took place a few millenia later than HE or early HSS kicked the game off.

[Minimalist]

Isn't it just possible that Heyerdahl, relying too much on stereotypes that said that early man was too stupid to design a boat simply assumed that they had to use rafts?

They could have had a 60 foot long dugout outrigger.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Again, as I recall, they 'drifted' along the Humboldt current, 'drifted'.

Well, our memories aren't what they once were:
the Humboldt current runs from south (the Antarctic) to north (way past the Galapagos) and was Kon Tiki's major obstacle on its planned route from Peru to Polynesia. Yet Kon Tiki, a raft, managed to navigate – steer! – straight across it . . . !

[Digit]

They could have had a 60 foot long dugout outrigger.

Which of course they are known to have used Min, and one of the most 'handy' vessels ever developed. Like the Chinese sailing rigs they both came as rather a shock to the more 'advanced' western nations.
The Chinese sailing rig is so much simpler than the 'square riggers' and the pacific dugout with its outrigger ran rings around western boats.

[Digit]

Or maybe my memory's better than your reading as this comes from the same article as your pic RS.

[edit] The Voyage
The Kon-Tiki left Callao, Peru, on the afternoon of April 28, 1947. It was initially towed 50 miles out to open water by the Fleet Tug Guardian Rios of the Peruvian Navy. The ship then sailed roughly west carried along on the Humboldt Current. The crew's first sight of land was the atoll of Puka-Puka on July 30. They made brief contact with the inhabitants of Angatau Island on August 4, but were unable to land safely. Three days later, on August 7, the raft struck a reef and was eventually beached on an uninhabited islet off Raroia Island in the Tuamotu group. The team had travelled a distance of around 3,770 nautical miles (c.6980 km) in 101 days, at an average speed of 1.5 knots.

I would point out that the polenisians took to water somewhat later than early man RS, or are you now claiming a date for the sail back to the paleolithic?
If so, I have to be thoroughly boring and ask for some evidence, sorry!

[john]

Or maybe my memory's better than your reading as this comes from the same article as your pic RS.

[edit] The Voyage
The Kon-Tiki left Callao, Peru, on the afternoon of April 28, 1947. It was initially towed 50 miles out to open water by the Fleet Tug Guardian Rios of the Peruvian Navy. The ship then sailed roughly west carried along on the Humboldt Current. The crew's first sight of land was the atoll of Puka-Puka on July 30. They made brief contact with the inhabitants of Angatau Island on August 4, but were unable to land safely. Three days later, on August 7, the raft struck a reef and was eventually beached on an uninhabited islet off Raroia Island in the Tuamotu group. The team had travelled a distance of around 3,770 nautical miles (c.6980 km) in 101 days, at an average speed of 1.5 knots.

I would point out that the polenisians took to water somewhat later than early man RS, or are you now claiming a date for the sail back to the paleolithic?
If so, I have to be thoroughly boring and ask for some evidence, sorry!

All -

The lack of both physical and/or representational evidence - which is total - is equal for both boats and rafts.

And I think we are in danger of having too many "angels dancing on the head of a pin", here.

My question is this:

Does anyone seriously contend that the various methods of transporting goods, chattel, and people; for example, watercraft, rafts, kayaks, umiaks, tomol, oceangoing outrigger canoes, curraghs, domestic pack animals, backpacks, travois, dog and horse sledges and packs, ice and snow-going sleds, carts, and last but not least human slaves all magically appeared "all of a piece" as soon as the Neolithic really got going?

As the Neolithic is the closest thing we can relate to in terms of this kind of techne, I think we have a gigantic cultural bias going.

I'll reiterate that the thinking which creates the techne of a sharpened, propelled stone point is absolutely equivalent to the thinking which creates the techne of a propelled watercraft with a sharpened bow.

No more, no less.


john

[Rokcet Scientist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humboldt_Current:

The Humboldt Current is a cold, low salinity ocean current that extends along the West Coast of South America from Northern Peru to the southern tip of Chile. The waters of the Humboldt Current system flow in the direction of the Equator and can extend 1,000 kilometers offshore.

If the Humboldt current runs south –> north, and Kon-Tiki traveled from east (Peru) to west (Tuamoto Islands), then Kon-Tiki obviously had no choice but to cross the Humboldt current at right angles.

[john]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humboldt_Current:

The Humboldt Current is a cold, low salinity ocean current that extends along the West Coast of South America from Northern Peru to the southern tip of Chile. The waters of the Humboldt Current system flow in the direction of the Equator and can extend 1,000 kilometers offshore.

If the Humboldt current runs south –> north, and Kon-Tiki traveled from east (Peru) to west (Tuamoto Islands), then Kon-Tiki obviously had no choice but to cross the Humboldt current at right angles.

Yesss...............


And your point is????????????




john

[Digit]

I would have to agree with all that John, the neolithic must have been the longest development programme in history with an idea here, another there, perhaps further development by a third party and the slow spread of those ideas.
Overnight? No!
I would add though John that Charlie? showed a whole line of cave drawings for very early boats.

[Digit]

Don't ask me RS, I simply quoted from the same article as you did.