Not exactly Archaeology....

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:47 am

but when did that ever stop us?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6926703.stm

Orangutan communication resembles a game of charades, a study suggests.

Researchers from St Andrews University have shown that the animals intentionally modify or repeat their signals to get their messages across.

The scientists said they believed all great apes could have this capability, suggesting that the skill may have evolved millions of years ago.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:13 am

Indeed!
Especially when you might learn another non-verbal way of getting a fresh brewski, eh?

daybrown · Post by **daybrown** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:18 am

Another reason I feel like I'm living on some kind of manipulated reality, is that Dr. Paul Ekman did work on facial gestures of primates for years before he began the study of hominid faces.

Which, he found still has primitive,and *autonomic* primate responses to situations. He developed an effective method of detecting deception since primates cant lie.

If you get his book and order his software, you can learn to detect these subtle signs that exist for 200 ms before the prefrontal lobes figure out what kind of face to present to support what is being said.

So- why does the CIA still want to use anything as obsolete as torture?

Its worth noting as well that many of the ancient sacred potions affected the ability to calculate the appropriate facial expression during altered states of consciousness. Shamen and witches had truth serums. You can still order Amanita Muscaria online. It is quite effective.

But dont tell anyone. the whole idea would just terrify the Christian power structure.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:52 am

Which pre supposes that the CIA does use torture of course.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:45 am

daybrown wrote:
since primates cant lie.

Of course not!
Saddam did have WMD's, didn't he . . . ? The president of the United States wouldn't lie to his people and the world, now would he . . . ?

FYI: 'primates' includes homo sapiens sapiens.

If you get his book and order his software, you can learn to detect these subtle signs that exist for 200 ms before the prefrontal lobes figure out what kind of face to present to support what is being said.

You got shares?

Its worth noting as well that many of the ancient sacred potions affected the ability to calculate the appropriate facial expression during altered states of consciousness. Shamen and witches had truth serums. You can still order Amanita Muscaria online. It is quite effective.

Yeah . . . about as effective as homeopathy . . .

daybrown · Post by **daybrown** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:19 am

What? you could not determine from the content that Ekman studied monkeys? "Demonic Males" by Wrangham & Peterson is one source that reports that Chimps to try to deceive.

But that kinda requires maliace afore thot.

As for Soma and the other potions, I guess you've never had the balls to try any, or you would not have been so flippant. But the neurology reveals a lot about why they work. Some of it is in the timing; there's commonly a distorted sense of time in an altered state of consciouness, and this is because the resistance at the dendrites has been changed, Deception involves the repainting of the facial expression, and in this case, the timing is all screwed up.

then too, some of the sensory systems get so overloaded with noise that the brain shuts them down and reaches a meditative state. Probing questions at the right time during the transitional stage reveals deception because the prefrontal lobes are so fucking busy. Simple recall of the truth does not require much prefrontal lobe activity.

Has a lot to so with why the intelligence community paid Sandoz labs, which put Albert Hoffman on the project, to discover a truth serum. Hoffman found LSD, and gave them rather more truth than they could handle.

Post by **Minimalist** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:48 am

So- why does the CIA still want to use anything as obsolete as torture?

I think they like torture.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:05 am

Depends on the reason for torturing. If enough stress is applied people will confess to anything, but if the victim is known to have specific info then under certain circumstances torture may be morally justified.
A specific case. The Indonesians tortured an Islamic terror suspect for weeks, apparently even removing his ribs!
Finally he talked and uncovered a plot to hijack a number of passenger planes and crash them into the Pacific. The plot was broken and an estimated 4000 lives saved.
Justified?
Is ignoring the risk to 4000 justified?
If someone took your child would you consider torture justified to recover your child?
I think black or white are not alternatives here.
After WW2 many Germans joined the French Foreign Legion and on one occasion a French officer in Indo China came face to face with a German who had tortured him and discussed it with him.
The French officer was proud of the fact that he had remained silent, the German informed that the next man had talked.
The officer wanted to know how a man could do that, the German explained that he had a duty to protect the men under him.
Eventually the officer found it necessary to torture a supect for precisely the same reason.
Justified?

daybrown · Post by **daybrown** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:18 am

No, they like torture. Torture is obsolete. As a subject an unexpected question, then look at the instant replay of high speed video a few seconds later. If you know where to look- not the eyes or the mouth, the truth will be written on his face.

If more certainty is required, use an electric cap and record the brain waves with an Electro-encephalograph. Show a suspect a photo of a known, but obscure terrorist. If the dude recognizes the face, you'll see it on the read out even if he does not say a word.

Its not a question of whether he wants to cooperate or not. Show him a photo of a recently discovered bomb making factory. If he's ever been there, he'll recognize it, and you will know he's been there.

Torture is obsolete. [that's a period]
Why doesnt the Bush administration and the CIA know that?

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:42 am

Oops! Ignore this one!

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:43 am

DB, a child of yours is kidnapped for ransome, the cops catch him, and he admits it.
Says your child is bound hand and foot, no food no water. Let me go and drop the charges I'll tell you where the child is, he says.
Cops can't do that.
One says, take a coffee break and leave him to me!
Where do you stand?

daybrown · Post by **daybrown** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:34 pm

No leave him to me. I'm the father. We'll have a couple of beers. Only his is laced with 300 mcg of Lysergic Acid. You cant taste it, you cant smell it, you cant see it. Until it hits.

Why ya think they call it "hits"?

And within an hour, he'll tell me everything I want to know. Dr. Hoffman was right, handled properly it is a truth serum. But to learn to use it properly, you have to trip with it. And after you've done that, you dont wanna work for the CIA any more. You wont be Christian any more either.

Read RG Wasson's "The Road to Eleusis". Still in print. It has a chapter by Hoffman. Who's the world's oldest acid head, He was 100 not too long back.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:06 pm

Granted DB, but some of the do gooders over here would argue that you would have breached his human rights and that such information was not valid in a court of law, that coercian was used, and the kidnapper would probably sue.
The case I put forward about Indonesia came up here some time ago on the basis of whether it was morally acceptable to ban torture here but then use evidence obtained by torture elsewhere to obtain a conviction.
The do gooders are currently winning.
But once you cross the line from formal questioning, as suggested by yourself, you cannot go back. You cannot claim the right for yourself and deny it of others.
Also I think the final answer in this would be determined by need. If a country, yours, mine, arrested someone known to have planted a nuclear device in one of the major cities then I think that any necessary means would be employed to obtain information.
Morals can be very flexible.

daybrown · Post by **daybrown** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:37 pm

Who getsta decide what the morals are? In any case, its a clue to their machismo that they want to keep on using torture, and will seek any excuse to do so. You know who Zimbardo is?

And if so, then why didnt the general in charge of Abu Gharib?

There are innumerable ways, besides the obsolescence of torture that reveal the psyhcological denial going on in the mind of the warrior class. Its run the show for 5000 years, and disempowering it is gonna be messy.

But I can do acid, and read the studies on group think, and factor in Bouchard's identical twin studies as well as the resulting hormone profiles. So, I know who these jackasses are, and I know they have no fucking idea who I am, and dont want to know.

I feel like a Bodhisattvah; I know there are others like me, in other places, saying much the same, and likewise not getting much feedback because there are so few rational sentient beings to communicate with.

We've had 5000 years of the brave heart, strong right arm, sword in hand, making the decisions. But now, all of a sudden, that dont cut it any more. Smith & Wesson guarantee equal rights for smart women.

Now, the history is obscure, but there are places in the ancient world that were run by women, and we can draw on them to figure out where this world is headed. Its not like I advocate this. I'm a guy, Its not upta me. I'm just trying to figure out what's coming down so I can adapt to it.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:55 pm

Yep I know who Zimbardo is DB, but regrettably there are occasions when torture achieves the desired result what ever the do gooders say about its affect on both parties etc. The Indonesian case I quoted for example and therefore its use will continue.
By trying to ban it the do gooders will simply push it underground where judicial safeguards, for example, will not be available.