Here I go again without a spelling checker or a knowdge of how to cut and past.
I just read thru Roberto's last link at the Mareain Arch thread.
(I would repeat it here, but I don't know how.)
At the very end there is a comparision of the written Orgam script to hand signals.
In the old cowboy and indian movies of my youth, the indian tribes that spoke different languages, and the smart, white "scouts," used a "sign language"
Has anybody, anywhere, any time, done any research as to where this language came from?
Plains Indian Hand Signs
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
I've never studied the subject KB. I remember reading somewhere that, although NA's spoke quite a few languages, the hand sign language was so similar that people from vast distances could communicate easily. This was thought to be the reason for the extensive trade network over North America.
Where was that link again? I'll bring it to this thread.
Where was that link again? I'll bring it to this thread.
Start off with the Smithsonian Institution's publications under "The Bureau of American Ethnology" - I was lucky, growing up with those big volumes - there are a number of articles dating back to the 1880's, written by people physically on the spot with the various native american cultures. As a matter of fact, the Smithsonian ethnological publications are, quite simply, a treasure trove of source work. It has always surprised me that they are not more widely known.
john
john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
You were indeed john, although I've never read those particular books. I'm going to see what the 'net has to offer on sign language among the Native Americans.Start off with the Smithsonian Institution's publications under "The Bureau of American Ethnology" - I was lucky, growing up with those big volumes
Beag -
I'd give my left nut - and maybe more - to be able to purchase a complete set of those volumes.
john
I'd give my left nut - and maybe more - to be able to purchase a complete set of those volumes.
john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
We may be a little older john, but never give more than one nut. Here is a link to NA sign language that should do for the thread. Interesting idea KB.
John, if you find those books, let me know.
http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/native/sign/
This is a "dictionary" of sorts of all kinds of Native American communication.
Thanks John, for telling me that I forgot to post the damn link.
John, if you find those books, let me know.
http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/native/sign/
This is a "dictionary" of sorts of all kinds of Native American communication.
Thanks John, for telling me that I forgot to post the damn link.
Last edited by Beagle on Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No link, hombre.
Department of Anthropology
A History of the Department, 1897-1997
In 1897, Anthropology was established as one of three departments of the U.S. National Museum. July 1, 1997, marked the Department of Anthropology's centennial anniversary — 100 years of excellence and leadership in anthropological research; the formation of world-renowned collections; state-of-the-art management and care; and broad, international public outreach.
Smithsonian anthropology, however, began with the founding of the Institution in 1846. Systematic collecting was started at that time in what was called "its ethnological department." The Regents requested that the Institution "procure collections .... illustrating the natural history of the country, and more especially the physical history, manners and customs of the various tribes of aborigines of the North American continent." Early anthropological investigations were conducted by institutional collaborators (rather than staff members), for example, E. G. Squier and E. H. Davis, whose "Ancient Monuments of the Mississippi Valley" (1847) formed the first volume of the Smithsonian Contributions to Knowledge.
The arrival of Spencer F. Baird in 1850, as assistant secretary in charge of the National Museum, initiated the Smithsonian's first attempt at a systematic collection of anthropological material. In 1858, the Institution accepted the government collections, then displayed in the Great Hall of the Patent Office, which included objects gathered by the United States Exploring Expedition; Matthew Perry's voyages to Africa and Japan; and gifts from foreign dignitaries to American presidents, including the exotic and valuable objects from the King of Siam and the Sultan of Muscat. In the late 1870s, some five hundred paintings of North American Indian life by George Catlin and numerous artifacts were bequeathed to the ethnological collections. The collections were growing so quickly that a formal section of Ethnology was established with curators to care for ethnological and archaeological collections, and massive, more systematic anthropological collecting was instituted.
A Division of Anthropology was created in 1883; Physical Anthropology was added to it in 1904. From the beginning, the Museum's collecting and collections research in anthropology was world-wide, although with an emphasis on North America.
In 1879 Congress established the Bureau of American Ethnology (B.A.E.) as a separate, purely research unit of the Smithsonian, independent of the National Museum. The focus of the Bureau's research was on North American Indian cultures, including important works in ethnology, archaeology, and linguistics. The B.A.E. effectively founded American anthropology (especially ethnology and linguistics) at a time when there were no advanced university degrees in the field and there were almost no full-time anthropologists employed anywhere else. The 200 Bulletins and 48 Annual Reports of the B.A.E. were the premier publications in anthropology in the country for most of the 86 years of the Bureau's existence. In the 1940s, the research of the Bureau expanded to cover the rest of the Americas, especially with the founding in 1943 of a sub-division for research and teaching called the Institute of Social Anthropology. In 1946 the B.A.E. established the River Basin Surveys to supervise and conduct archaeological research in areas where dams were flooding many of the centers of prehistoric cultures within the U.S.
Beginning in the 1950s, the museum Department of Anthropology increasingly emphasized research, in addition to its traditional curatorial and exhibition duties. It also recognized its curatorial, and hence its research responsibilities for the anthropology of Asia, the Pacific, South America and Africa, and hired well-qualified specialists in those areas for the first time. In 1965 S. Dillon Ripley, as incoming Secretary of the Smithsonian, reformed the National Museum of Natural History1 by giving research a higher priority than caring for and exhibiting the collections (although the latter continued, and even improved). As part of this change, the Bureau of American Ethnology was eliminated, and its staff and important library amalgamated with those of the museum Department of Anthropology. The B.A.E. Archives (its sole collection responsibility) moved as well, and became the National Anthropological Archives with a correspondingly broadened mandate. The B.A.E. publication series was replaced by the new Smithsonian Contributions to Anthropology (SCA). In 1975 Congress authorized the addition of the National Anthropological Film Center (now the Human Studies Film Archives) to the Smithsonian; in 1981, it became part of the Department of Anthropology.
At first, the amalgamated units were called the Office of Anthropology, with a higher status than ordinary departments in the museum. But positions and financing adequate to maintain this hierarchical position were not available, and the Office reverted to the Department level. Today, Anthropology is the largest of the seven scientific departments in the Museum of Natural History (Anthropology, Botany, Entomology, Invertebrate Zoology, Mineral Sciences, Paleobiology, Vertebrate Zoology).
In accordance with legislation passed by Congress in 1989, a Repatriation Office was established in the museum in 1991 and moved to the Department in 1993, in order to establish a close working relationship with the Department and to facilitate access to the Department's Native American collections and the associated documentation.
Smithsonian Anthropology has had a direct influence on the development of the field of anthropology. Members of the department, in conjunction with those at the Bureau of American Ethnology, founded the Anthropological Society of Washington in 1880, which in 1888 began publishing the American Anthropologist, which was taken over in 1899 by the new American Anthropological Association and became the leading professional journal of anthropology. After World War II, archaeological investigations in river basins along the Missouri, by the Bureau of American Ethnology and archaeologists in the museum department, set modern standards for conducting and documenting archaeological fieldwork. The field of anthropological conservation also was developed at the Smithsonian, and its approaches and methodologies are used today around the world.
At present, the Department has three curatorial Divisions: Ethnology (including linguistics), Archaeology, and Physical Anthropology. There are separate Divisions for the Handbook of North American Indians, the Archives (National Anthropological Archives and Human Studies Film Archives), and the Repatriation Office. The Department recognizes several special research and outreach programs within the curatorial divisions: Archaeobiology, Human Origins, Latin American Archaeology, Asian Cultural History, Arctic Studies, Paleoindian/Paleoecology, and American Indian Program.
Since 1846 the Department and its predecessor organizations have maintained a leadership role in research, the care of collections, and the dissemination of information to the scholarly and lay communities. Since the Institution's beginnings, Anthropology has broadened to include a global study of all aspects of human beings, from the earliest origins of the species up to the modern day. This expanded mandate pervades all aspects of anthropological research, collections, and outreach activities.
1 By this time, the Museum
And I haven't been able to find anything online.........
john
Department of Anthropology
A History of the Department, 1897-1997
In 1897, Anthropology was established as one of three departments of the U.S. National Museum. July 1, 1997, marked the Department of Anthropology's centennial anniversary — 100 years of excellence and leadership in anthropological research; the formation of world-renowned collections; state-of-the-art management and care; and broad, international public outreach.
Smithsonian anthropology, however, began with the founding of the Institution in 1846. Systematic collecting was started at that time in what was called "its ethnological department." The Regents requested that the Institution "procure collections .... illustrating the natural history of the country, and more especially the physical history, manners and customs of the various tribes of aborigines of the North American continent." Early anthropological investigations were conducted by institutional collaborators (rather than staff members), for example, E. G. Squier and E. H. Davis, whose "Ancient Monuments of the Mississippi Valley" (1847) formed the first volume of the Smithsonian Contributions to Knowledge.
The arrival of Spencer F. Baird in 1850, as assistant secretary in charge of the National Museum, initiated the Smithsonian's first attempt at a systematic collection of anthropological material. In 1858, the Institution accepted the government collections, then displayed in the Great Hall of the Patent Office, which included objects gathered by the United States Exploring Expedition; Matthew Perry's voyages to Africa and Japan; and gifts from foreign dignitaries to American presidents, including the exotic and valuable objects from the King of Siam and the Sultan of Muscat. In the late 1870s, some five hundred paintings of North American Indian life by George Catlin and numerous artifacts were bequeathed to the ethnological collections. The collections were growing so quickly that a formal section of Ethnology was established with curators to care for ethnological and archaeological collections, and massive, more systematic anthropological collecting was instituted.
A Division of Anthropology was created in 1883; Physical Anthropology was added to it in 1904. From the beginning, the Museum's collecting and collections research in anthropology was world-wide, although with an emphasis on North America.
In 1879 Congress established the Bureau of American Ethnology (B.A.E.) as a separate, purely research unit of the Smithsonian, independent of the National Museum. The focus of the Bureau's research was on North American Indian cultures, including important works in ethnology, archaeology, and linguistics. The B.A.E. effectively founded American anthropology (especially ethnology and linguistics) at a time when there were no advanced university degrees in the field and there were almost no full-time anthropologists employed anywhere else. The 200 Bulletins and 48 Annual Reports of the B.A.E. were the premier publications in anthropology in the country for most of the 86 years of the Bureau's existence. In the 1940s, the research of the Bureau expanded to cover the rest of the Americas, especially with the founding in 1943 of a sub-division for research and teaching called the Institute of Social Anthropology. In 1946 the B.A.E. established the River Basin Surveys to supervise and conduct archaeological research in areas where dams were flooding many of the centers of prehistoric cultures within the U.S.
Beginning in the 1950s, the museum Department of Anthropology increasingly emphasized research, in addition to its traditional curatorial and exhibition duties. It also recognized its curatorial, and hence its research responsibilities for the anthropology of Asia, the Pacific, South America and Africa, and hired well-qualified specialists in those areas for the first time. In 1965 S. Dillon Ripley, as incoming Secretary of the Smithsonian, reformed the National Museum of Natural History1 by giving research a higher priority than caring for and exhibiting the collections (although the latter continued, and even improved). As part of this change, the Bureau of American Ethnology was eliminated, and its staff and important library amalgamated with those of the museum Department of Anthropology. The B.A.E. Archives (its sole collection responsibility) moved as well, and became the National Anthropological Archives with a correspondingly broadened mandate. The B.A.E. publication series was replaced by the new Smithsonian Contributions to Anthropology (SCA). In 1975 Congress authorized the addition of the National Anthropological Film Center (now the Human Studies Film Archives) to the Smithsonian; in 1981, it became part of the Department of Anthropology.
At first, the amalgamated units were called the Office of Anthropology, with a higher status than ordinary departments in the museum. But positions and financing adequate to maintain this hierarchical position were not available, and the Office reverted to the Department level. Today, Anthropology is the largest of the seven scientific departments in the Museum of Natural History (Anthropology, Botany, Entomology, Invertebrate Zoology, Mineral Sciences, Paleobiology, Vertebrate Zoology).
In accordance with legislation passed by Congress in 1989, a Repatriation Office was established in the museum in 1991 and moved to the Department in 1993, in order to establish a close working relationship with the Department and to facilitate access to the Department's Native American collections and the associated documentation.
Smithsonian Anthropology has had a direct influence on the development of the field of anthropology. Members of the department, in conjunction with those at the Bureau of American Ethnology, founded the Anthropological Society of Washington in 1880, which in 1888 began publishing the American Anthropologist, which was taken over in 1899 by the new American Anthropological Association and became the leading professional journal of anthropology. After World War II, archaeological investigations in river basins along the Missouri, by the Bureau of American Ethnology and archaeologists in the museum department, set modern standards for conducting and documenting archaeological fieldwork. The field of anthropological conservation also was developed at the Smithsonian, and its approaches and methodologies are used today around the world.
At present, the Department has three curatorial Divisions: Ethnology (including linguistics), Archaeology, and Physical Anthropology. There are separate Divisions for the Handbook of North American Indians, the Archives (National Anthropological Archives and Human Studies Film Archives), and the Repatriation Office. The Department recognizes several special research and outreach programs within the curatorial divisions: Archaeobiology, Human Origins, Latin American Archaeology, Asian Cultural History, Arctic Studies, Paleoindian/Paleoecology, and American Indian Program.
Since 1846 the Department and its predecessor organizations have maintained a leadership role in research, the care of collections, and the dissemination of information to the scholarly and lay communities. Since the Institution's beginnings, Anthropology has broadened to include a global study of all aspects of human beings, from the earliest origins of the species up to the modern day. This expanded mandate pervades all aspects of anthropological research, collections, and outreach activities.
1 By this time, the Museum
And I haven't been able to find anything online.........
john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
I don't know if this is helpful, but from what I'm reading books can be checked out from the Smithsonian. Probably not what you're looking for but I just did a cursory look.
http://www.sil.si.edu/research/borrow/circulation.htm
http://www.sil.si.edu/research/borrow/circulation.htm
This is the link Roberto gave.
It was in the Marine Archaeology thread.
You have to go all the way to the bottom.
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page9.htm
It shows a relationship between the Orgam writing and hand signs.
In the movies, it was used when they didn’t speak the same language, but could use the hand signals because they were common across tribes.
This is in the old black and white days. My wife has become quite a fan of them now that they are available on cheap DVDs.
I am amazed at the level of accuracy in the backgrounds of these movies. The maritime hardware and tactics in the Barrymore pirate movies in particular. I am wondering if this common sign language thing has a similar degree of accuracy in historical detail? And, of course, the consequences implied.
On another common language concept, didn’t Edgar Rice Burrows, in his Warlords of Mars series have the same concept. A planet wide common written language in spite of a bunch of spoken languages? (I am going back to my pre-teen reading now, so the memory may be clouded.)
I have used this concept myself. I only speak English, but I have haggled with street vendors by scribbling numbers back and forth until we agree. We couldn’t speak to each other, but the Arab numbering system was common to us both. (On a more modern note; A programmer friend of mine told me that on a trip to Japan he could only communicate by writing back and forth in Microsoft Basic!)
It was in the Marine Archaeology thread.
You have to go all the way to the bottom.
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page9.htm
It shows a relationship between the Orgam writing and hand signs.
In the movies, it was used when they didn’t speak the same language, but could use the hand signals because they were common across tribes.
This is in the old black and white days. My wife has become quite a fan of them now that they are available on cheap DVDs.
I am amazed at the level of accuracy in the backgrounds of these movies. The maritime hardware and tactics in the Barrymore pirate movies in particular. I am wondering if this common sign language thing has a similar degree of accuracy in historical detail? And, of course, the consequences implied.
On another common language concept, didn’t Edgar Rice Burrows, in his Warlords of Mars series have the same concept. A planet wide common written language in spite of a bunch of spoken languages? (I am going back to my pre-teen reading now, so the memory may be clouded.)
I have used this concept myself. I only speak English, but I have haggled with street vendors by scribbling numbers back and forth until we agree. We couldn’t speak to each other, but the Arab numbering system was common to us both. (On a more modern note; A programmer friend of mine told me that on a trip to Japan he could only communicate by writing back and forth in Microsoft Basic!)
It's just a guess, but I would imagine that this early hand sign language evolved during the early fur trading era here in North America.
http://fookembug.wordpress.com/2007/09/ ... americans/
This popped up through a google search.
CHEERS...
Talking Hands the quiet language of early Native Americans
Jump to Comments
Written by Bug
There are many fine books about the Native American Indians. The problem is that Indian Sign Language books are hard to find. Today this language is rarely to be seen anywhere. I found the rare videos, see below.
For untold thousands of years the American Indian people have communicated with sign language. Indian Sign Language is believed to have been the first widely used North American language. Records of early European visitors frequently note that Native Americans were proficient in communication through the use of signs. The need for some universal means of communication is obvious, considering the large number of Indian tribes living in North America when the first Europeans arrived. Most of these tribes had their own distinct language, often much different from that of their neighbors. Verbal communication would have been tough. Indian Sign Language was the answer. It was the primary language of trade and commerce. Apparently it became standardized at a fairly early date with the same signs used almost universally with only slight variations from tribe to tribe. I first learned about Indian Sign Language when I found an old dusty book at the Aspen Camp School for the Deaf where I worked for years. It interested me so I taught myself. This early interest in Indian Sign Language rekindled at camp. We set up the Indian Village there where many people came to enjoy learning the past of Native American history such as dance, foods, music, and many more, of coure, including Indian Sign Language. We had Native American guests visiting us. It was fun.
A few years later I met Deaf Native American from Indian Reservation at South Dakota. We became close friends. She taught me the beautiful Indian Sign Language. She loved talking about her grandparents and great grandparents in the history of Native America. I found this interesting that many relatives in her family were Deaf. Most of them didn’t go to Deaf school. They knew American Sign Language (ASL) and Indian Sign Language. Most time they used their own “Home Sign” in their own Indian Sign Language so they could communicate better with others just like if your family doesn’t know sign language so you use the gestures and “home” sign.
Here's another one:
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/signlanguage.htm
http://fookembug.wordpress.com/2007/09/ ... americans/
This popped up through a google search.
CHEERS...
Talking Hands the quiet language of early Native Americans
Jump to Comments
Written by Bug
There are many fine books about the Native American Indians. The problem is that Indian Sign Language books are hard to find. Today this language is rarely to be seen anywhere. I found the rare videos, see below.
For untold thousands of years the American Indian people have communicated with sign language. Indian Sign Language is believed to have been the first widely used North American language. Records of early European visitors frequently note that Native Americans were proficient in communication through the use of signs. The need for some universal means of communication is obvious, considering the large number of Indian tribes living in North America when the first Europeans arrived. Most of these tribes had their own distinct language, often much different from that of their neighbors. Verbal communication would have been tough. Indian Sign Language was the answer. It was the primary language of trade and commerce. Apparently it became standardized at a fairly early date with the same signs used almost universally with only slight variations from tribe to tribe. I first learned about Indian Sign Language when I found an old dusty book at the Aspen Camp School for the Deaf where I worked for years. It interested me so I taught myself. This early interest in Indian Sign Language rekindled at camp. We set up the Indian Village there where many people came to enjoy learning the past of Native American history such as dance, foods, music, and many more, of coure, including Indian Sign Language. We had Native American guests visiting us. It was fun.
A few years later I met Deaf Native American from Indian Reservation at South Dakota. We became close friends. She taught me the beautiful Indian Sign Language. She loved talking about her grandparents and great grandparents in the history of Native America. I found this interesting that many relatives in her family were Deaf. Most of them didn’t go to Deaf school. They knew American Sign Language (ASL) and Indian Sign Language. Most time they used their own “Home Sign” in their own Indian Sign Language so they could communicate better with others just like if your family doesn’t know sign language so you use the gestures and “home” sign.
Here's another one:
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/signlanguage.htm
Roberto, I have a question for you since you have a background in the physical sciences. I've read through the link of yours that had a lot of Atlantis discussion on it.
I'm familiar with everything in that thread except for the assertion that the weight of the ice at the poles during the LGM was great enought to distort the shape of the Earth to the point that the mid-atlantic ridge buckled upward and was above sea level.
As a physical scientist, does that seem possible to you?
I'm familiar with everything in that thread except for the assertion that the weight of the ice at the poles during the LGM was great enought to distort the shape of the Earth to the point that the mid-atlantic ridge buckled upward and was above sea level.
As a physical scientist, does that seem possible to you?
I'm familiar with everything in that thread except for the assertion that the weight of the ice at the poles during the LGM was great enought to distort the shape of the Earth to the point that the mid-atlantic ridge buckled upward and was above sea level. -
The weight of the ice does distort the shape of the earth in it's immediate area, and probably the mid-atlantic ridge in it's northern most end. But as you get further south in latitude from the ice mass, I would not think the ice would have much effect on the ridge at all. This ice distortion would
have to be a factor nearest the source, either the north or south pole. Or some glacier.
The Atlantic ridge extents up from the bottom and is much shallower than the rest of the mid Atlantic region. I would have to go look up the extact depth atop the mid-atlantic ridge top for present day's depth, but it varies along the line, and some areas it's more shallow than other areas. As one approaches the ridge by ship you can watch the bottom come up, then you cross the ridge and it gradually resides.
As the mid-Atlantic ridge grows it pushes up and outward, forming parallel ridges. And during the Pleistocene when there was more ice, and shallower depths, I wouldn't doubt at all that this mid-Atlantic ridge was exposed in places. Maybe not the whole thing, but definitely parts of it. Perhaps this was where Atlantis once was. It's all formed from
magma, mother nature continously growing. But the Atlantic Ridge is not a subduction zone like on the west coast of the U.S. It just keeps pushing up and out, up and out in a table plane aspect. If I was to look for Atlantis along the Mid-Atlantic ridge I would pick the shallowest points to investigate first.
As far as your question, my thought is that the Mid-Atlantic ridge was only effected/displaced at the extreme northern end by the weight of the ice from the North Pole ice sheet. Not the whole ridge. And any islands that where exposed during the Pleistocene, where coverd up as the water table rose to it's present depth/height.
The weight of the ice does distort the shape of the earth in it's immediate area, and probably the mid-atlantic ridge in it's northern most end. But as you get further south in latitude from the ice mass, I would not think the ice would have much effect on the ridge at all. This ice distortion would
have to be a factor nearest the source, either the north or south pole. Or some glacier.
The Atlantic ridge extents up from the bottom and is much shallower than the rest of the mid Atlantic region. I would have to go look up the extact depth atop the mid-atlantic ridge top for present day's depth, but it varies along the line, and some areas it's more shallow than other areas. As one approaches the ridge by ship you can watch the bottom come up, then you cross the ridge and it gradually resides.
As the mid-Atlantic ridge grows it pushes up and outward, forming parallel ridges. And during the Pleistocene when there was more ice, and shallower depths, I wouldn't doubt at all that this mid-Atlantic ridge was exposed in places. Maybe not the whole thing, but definitely parts of it. Perhaps this was where Atlantis once was. It's all formed from
magma, mother nature continously growing. But the Atlantic Ridge is not a subduction zone like on the west coast of the U.S. It just keeps pushing up and out, up and out in a table plane aspect. If I was to look for Atlantis along the Mid-Atlantic ridge I would pick the shallowest points to investigate first.
As far as your question, my thought is that the Mid-Atlantic ridge was only effected/displaced at the extreme northern end by the weight of the ice from the North Pole ice sheet. Not the whole ridge. And any islands that where exposed during the Pleistocene, where coverd up as the water table rose to it's present depth/height.