Let's Go Boating

[Cognito]

Here's a modern-day disaster article mentioning that "for the first time in human history" there will be no ice at the North Pole due to global warming:

http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 55406.html

Now, pay attention: here's the Wiki article on the Holocene Climactic Optimum:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_Climatic_Optimum

Notice anything? From the Wiki article:

"The Holocene Climate Optimum warm event consisted of increases of up to 4 °C near the North Pole (in one study, winter warming of 3 to 9 °C and summer of 2 to 6 °C in northern central Siberia)"

Now, can't we suppose that the frikken Arctic was ice free during the Holocene Optimum and that humans were given another sea-bound method for reaching North America? Or even traveling from there back to Asia? IMO during six months of the year it would have been 24 hours of daylight with terrific hunting opportunities!

[Ishtar]

Or were thriving in Siberia?

[rich]

I think they mean "written" or recorded history - not prehistory.

[Digit]

I noted the same point in a post Cog, never let the facts get in the way of a headline!

[Forum Monk]

The wiki article may be misleading if not read carefully. The temperatures given are relative. When they say temperatures were +4 degrees C. in the arctic, that is realtive to the present mean, not absolute.

I am finding out there is increasing evidence the polar regions were never ice-free in human history (not written history, Rich - human history). I am still looking at some of the evidence posted on another board but it certainly goes a long way to dispeling certain ancient catastrophism theories.

[Cognito]

I am finding out there is increasing evidence the polar regions were never ice-free in human history (not written history, Rich - human history).

FM, I tend to agree with you. However, the fact remains that it was far warmer in northern latitudes during the Holocene Optimum than it has been since 3000bce - whether that means there was an ice-free Arctic or not during that time is yet unknown - but it's a possibility. My bitch is the observation that "experts" keep analysing past events from current context - and sometimes they don't even get current context correct. If this keeps up, I'm going to need a new punching bag!

[kbs2244]

But a very interesting concept Cog.
24 hour day light.
Even if not ice free, at least a boatable Artic Ocean.
Look at your globe.
It is not all the far from Russia to Canada.
With our left over Cold War mentality we think of them as being hugely separated when they really are not.

[Cognito]

But a very interesting concept Cog.
24 hour day light.
Even if not ice free, at least a boatable Artic Ocean.
Look at your globe.

So here is a map of the Arctic Ocean before global warming. Doesn't take an IQ above that of a cucumber to figure out that Siberians could boat their way into new hunting grounds during continuous daylight with an unlimited supply of fresh water along the way and wind up on a new continent. No "Bering Land Bridge" needed.



By the way, has anyone here figured out yet why sophisticated cities were only found by Europeans in South and Central America? (Sorry, W/A, I know that Mexico is in North America, but I'm calling it Central America for this exercise). Mensa members need not respond: your games and puzzles are calling you (i.e. go away).

[Ishtar]

What about the Indus valley civilisation, Cogs? Municipal planning and sewerage works, the lot! c3000 BC.

[Cognito]

Ish, you're on the right track. This is someone else's idea - but I agree with the assessment. Cities, pyramids, sewage systems, etc. were introduced from trans-Pacific migrations along the 20-30 degree south latitude. Many of the islands along the last 1/3rd of the course were inundated by rising sea levels. We don't see much in the way of cities in North America although the materials and population was there to build them - I grew up in the U.S. Pacific Northwest, there is an abundance of natural material in that environment: timber, granite, limestone, marble, etc., but no pre-Columbian cities.

I am not attempting to take away the accomplishments of Native Americans, just explaining that the introduction of ideas and technologies goes a long way in explaining why Caral was built before the Egyptian pyramids - and obviously it was built with Native American smarts and muscle. In many ways American cities were far superior to anything the Conquistadors had ever seen or experienced - clean, organised and sophisticated. If it wasn't for the introduction of fatal diseases by the Spanish, this side of the Forum would probably be speaking Aztec.

The Americas provided Europe with enough looted gold and silver to eclipse Islam and more importantly, provided valuable crops such as maize and the potato for population expansion. So you tell me, Ish, what is that carving of maize doing on that Indian temple, anyway?

[Ishtar]

Cogs, which Indian temple? There are so many ...

[Digit]

The things I do for you Ish!

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/maize.html

[Ishtar]

Thank you, Dig. Cog's question makes sense now although I'm nowhere near answering it.

However, I have been to Mysore (where these temples are) and they are very far south and nowhere near the Indus valley. The southern Indian is also very different physically to those in the north - smaller, much darker and more Negroid (Ethiopian) with some Australoid.

The Fuegians who live in Tierra del Feugo on the tip of South America are thought to have originated from Australia ... but it's a bit of a tenuous link... and they're tall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuegians

The Fuegians are thought to be physically, culturally and linguistically distinct from other Native Americans. Some proponents of this theory suggest they may be the descendants of Australian Aborigines who colonized the area prior to the arrival of mongoloid Amerindians. Both Tehuelches and Selk'nams practiced body painting and rock art similar to that of Australian Aborigines. In contrast to most Amerindian peoples, Fuegians appeared to be taller than most Europeans (this does not include the Yahgans, who were quite short with skinny limbs and fat bodies- a physical adaptation to the cold, or the Kawesqar.)

I don't think this helps but it's all I can offer.

[Ishtar]

Cogs, are you going to come back and give us the answer to this?

Because I hate it when you get me all stimulated, aroused and interested, and then just leave me hanging.

[john]

All -

The Hokoham - neighbors to the Hopi - created a pretty incredible

System of canals and ditches driven by the river watersheds

To irrigate their crops over huge distances.

Unfortunately, I can't find any good description of this on the INet.

Next: pretty good precis of N. American migration, including

Reference to the Fuegans.


http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpr ... a-the-sea/


hoka hey

john

one more add - re "giants" -

remembered this from somewhere; just had to look it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patagon

j