Matagorda Woman

[gunny]

Brief note about 12K in shallow grave on coastal Texas plain. Any furthur data?

[MichelleH]

Gunny,

You'll need to be a wee bit less cryptic. Where did you see this brief note?

[kbs2244]

There was a news story (I don't think it was a school news release) about a body found in the marsh, I belive south of Houston, that was dated to 12,000 BP.
I do not belive it was a grave. More like an acidental drowning.
I may have saved it.
I will try looking for it.

[john]

Gunny,

You'll need to be a wee bit less cryptic. Where did you see this brief note?

All -

Perhaps this is the reference.

http://www.culturalresource.com/pdf/arpa.pdf


hoka hey


john

[MichelleH]

Excellent find John!

[john]

Excellent find John!

Michelle -

Well, there's more to it than that.

I was unaware that this forum was unaware of the Texas gal.

Who lived on what we consider the Clovis edge.



However, what intrigues me is the Windover people.

Yes, they are younger, but where, oh where, did the mastery

Of textiles come from?

http://explorenorth.com/library/history ... ones2a.htm

The Windover people's textiles leave me

In the same position as Minimalist's frustration

With hematite.

Just how in hell did a people just freaking appear

On the Florida Coast 8,000 years ago

With an ongoing mature and sophisticated textile culture?

So we have Ms. Clovis horizon, hunter/gatherer Matagorda, Texas, on the one hand

And on the other hand a Florida people utilizing

Weaving techniques which took thousands of years to develop.

Mind you, although I haven't really looked into this yet,

I can't think of many examples of equivalently old weaving technique

Across the entire world. And, unequivocally, there is no correlation

Between the Windover weavers and the Siberians.

Reason: the Siberians of 8k years ago didn't weave.

To me this indicates that the concept of Beringia,

Which boils down to the argument of one "Siberian" people occupying North America

In one move, is bullshit.

Next?


hoka hey


john

ps

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all


Soooo,

We have textiles in Florida

And ceramics in the Amazon Basin

About the same time

Neither of which have sweet fuck all to do

With Clovis.

So what have we got?

j

[gunny]

Actually, being cryptic to this bunch is an afformation of respect. Brought this up because I was born about 15 miles away. Sometimes seems Matagorda Woman and I were co-patriots when there is a groan getting out of the bed in the morning. Between shot in the butt by asshole VC and breaking 11 bones on my Harley, groans are something I used to make fun of my dad doing. He fell three stories through a trap door in a rice mill onto machinery in Bay City near Matagorda. Wish I could tell him now that I understand.

[kbs2244]

Well we have gone from TX to FLA, but this is for you John.
Boats.
Enough of them to build a canal system around some rapids.
That is through traffic, not local fishing.
On the North edge of the Everglades.
At least 300 AD, if not before.

Do you think there may have been some trading going on?
Enough to make a shortcut through the peninsula worth the effort to build canals?

http://www.flarchaeology.org/

Go to the “projects” page.
Be sure to check out the Ground Penetrating Radar link.

(Michelle:
You might want to move this over to the
"At least they are trying" thread.)

[Roberto]

Amerindian Seafarers at 150 A.D.

http://www.caribbeancompass.com/amerindian.htm


And at 300 A.D. Amerindian's had built a light house at the
mouth of the Miami River and a man made canal near the
Caloosahatchee River. This was on the west coast of Florida.
And along the east coast of Florida they where using the
Indian River, which flows "north" up to St. Augustine.

Very interesting stuff! Seafarers where probably navigating
the whole Gulf of Mexico during this time.

[gunny]

Whats His Face---The Titanic Guy---Had A Recent Expedition To The "FLOWER GARDEN" A Reef Off The Texas Coast To Look For Artifacts Since It Would Have Been On The Coast Dry Land Pleisticene(sp)---Did He Find Anything?

[kbs2244]

I couldn’t find anything that wasn’t dated 2007.
And that is strange since there was supposed to be live feeds to schools all over the place.
Ballard does a good job of controlling what he finds, but this was a government sponsored project.
You would expect more about it to be published.
Did it ever actually happen?

[Cognito]

Soooo,

We have textiles in Florida

And ceramics in the Amazon Basin

About the same time

Neither of which have sweet fuck all to do

With Clovis.

So what have we got?

John, I believe we have consistent technological interchange going on circa the South Pacific 20 degree latitude. Ideas certainly traveled in an eastward direction, but I'm still not certain if people went back to their "roots" on occasion.

Buildings and civilisation took root in South and Central America and had yet to impact North America in a big way when Europeans arrived (W/A, for this argument I am referring to Mexico as Central although it is clearly in the north). If Beringia was such a big deal, one would think the spread of architecture and cities would have been in the opposite direction.

THINK ABOUT IT.

The Siberians didn't bring much in sophistication to the table.

[Minimalist]

The Siberians didn't bring much in sophistication to the table.

Not even hand axes!