Out Of America

[Rokcet Scientist]

Mammoths moved 'out of America'

Well, more precisely: they moved back to whence they came from.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7596532.stm

Wanna bet humanoids did the same at some, or, more likely, several points in time?

[kbs2244]

R S
Your link went to the Roman/HIV story, not anything about Mammoths.
But I found that story interesting in that it ignored Africa.
It was on the very edge of the Empire, but has the worst percentage of people with HIV/AIDS on the planet.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Your link went to the Roman/HIV story, not anything about Mammoths.

OOPS!
Sorry!
And now I can't find the mammoth story anymore...
Anyway, it was about DNA research showing that mammoths in north eastern Siberia, 10.000 BP, descended from north-American mammoths (which had gotten to north America via north east Siberia in the first place). I.o.w.: they backtracked.

[Minimalist]

I found it for you, R/S.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 145058.htm

[Rokcet Scientist]

Cheers, Min!

[Cognito]

From the ariticle:

"However, it now appears that mammoths established themselves in North America much earlier than presumed, then migrated back to Siberia, and eventually replaced all pre-existing haplotypes of mammoths."

So much for the Big Game Hunter Bering Land Bridge Theory. If Stuart Fiedel & Group want to stick with that fantasy, then he should be stating that Siberia was populated by North American big game hunters who were following the mammoths. Clovis-first falls over "thud" one more time.

[Digit]

Their 'explanation' should be worth waiting for Cogs!

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Their 'explanation' should be worth waiting for Cogs!

Roy.

I just hope they don't speculate that mammoths were into "time-shares" in Alaska?

[Digit]

Be serious Min. Clovis were using their tusks as ski jumps!

[Cognito]

Their 'explanation' should be worth waiting for Cogs!

Unfortunately, Digit, there will be no explanation since the evidence does not fit their pre-conceived paradigm.

I favor the boating approach from East Asia along the North Pacific current - just makes more sense. Also, I believe the fact that cities were first established in and near Peru and spread from there lends credence to the South Pacific 20th Parallel crossing. The Hopi Creation Myth even refers to it. However, Stuart isn't Hopi, is he.

[Digit]

The NP Current has to be the favourite route Cog. A voyage from pretty well anywhere in Asia north of the Equator to the west coast of America could be within site of landfalls at all times, whereas from Europe only the northern polar sea route would have been remotely possible.
In fact landfalls on the west coast would be damn near inevitable IMO.

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

From Europe 'they' could have done exactly the same thing with the icepack, Roy. Never losing sight of it. Putting in to spend the night on the ice before the next day's stage*. Although they wouldn't be consciously going to America. They didn't have a clue there was an America you could go to in the first place! They were hunters. Simply following their quarry. They 'bumped' into America purely by accident.
Around 18,000 BP the edge of the icepack stretched from Bretagne (Brittany) in France to Martha's Vineyard, Massachussetts.

*Actually it is my premise that they even walked from Europe to America. Living on and off the ice. Like the Inuit do. Even without boats of any kind. Once they had boats it would have been a lot easier again, of course.

Aboriginals' predecessors reached Oz about 50,000 to 60,000 years BP. With boats!
Homo Erectus (Pithecanthropus Erectus) reached Java 800,000 years BP. With 'boats'!

So hominids have used 'boats' for at least the latter third of the ice ages (which started about 2.6 mio years BP). Wanna bet hominids were in America at least 100,000 years BP? And probably much, much earlier than that?

[Digit]

That's why I suggested that the northern Polar route was the only feasible route from Europe to North America RS. It would have been a brave man, or total idiot, who decided to cross the Atlantic further south.

Roy.

[Cognito]

Around 18,000 BP the edge of the icepack stretched from Bretagne (Brittany) in France to Martha's Vineyard, Massachussetts.

*Actually it is my premise that they even walked from Europe to America. Living on and off the ice. Like the Inuit do. Even without boats of any kind. Once they had boats it would have been a lot easier again, of course.

R/S, probably a combination of both. Small, animal-skin boats would have been ideal along the ice pack, flexible and easy to control. They represent a great storage device while moving over the ice also.

I would imagine the effect of the icepack stretching into the North Atlantic would be to alter northern marine migration routes to its periphery, creating a smorgasbord of food along the way. It was probably easier to live there than mainland Europe during various times of the year.

[Minimalist]

I think you have a point, Cogs. One can only imagine the richness of the hunting environment in the ocean back before man started whole sale commercial fishing.

How much easier would it have been for stone age hunter to isolate and kill a sea lion or seal or walrus on land than a mammoth? Pick out one on the edge of the herd and surround it. Those creatures are fairly immobile on land to begin with. A good sized walrus would have provided a feast for a small HG group.