Internal Ramps at Giza

[Minimalist]

The idea presented is that the three main ramps systems envisioned by archaeologists are impractical.

1. A single ramp would be over a mile long in order to reach the top with a gentle enough gradient (7 degrees) to allow someone to pull a big stone. The host, Bob Brier, noted that because of conditions, only the south side was fit for such a ramp and, as he paced it off, it became apparent that even there such a ramp would have to cross a valley. There is no indication that the Egyptians even tried. Besides, the ramp would have been a larger construction than the pyramid itself.

2. Levers, cranes, etc. They would have needed hundreds of such devices and there is no place to anchor them as you go up the pyramid.

3. External, wrap around ramps. Impractical as they would obscure the sight lines making it impossible for the architects to check their angles. Also, such ramps would make the task harder as the distance to be traveled would be 4 times greater than on a straight ramp. Not so bad if you're walking but if you are pulling a sled with a big rock on it......

Anyway, the proponent suggests an internal ramp starting at the bottom and rising at the predicted 7 degree angle. He also suggests an external straight ramp, 1/3 of the way up the pyramid, but that became apparent with his second idea which had nothing to do with the ramps. Anyway, as he showed it, these narrow passages, inside the pyramid, would allow crews to drag the stones up one side or another all the way to the top. He gets around the corner problem ( how do you drag a stone around the corner....the men with the ropes would be pulling from the side forcing the sled into the side of the pyramid...by postulating that they left "notches" in order to allow air into the tunnels AND turn the blocks with some sort of "crane device." I think he over-engineered that idea: Once you have the notch all you need is two levers, one at the back of the sled and one at the front pushing them in opposite directions. Turning it would be child's play compared to dragging it up the ramp in those closed...probably baking...conditions. One enormous problem hit me. He shows no way for the crews to GET DOWN. The ramps were narrow. A stone could be going up or a crew could be walking down but not both at the same time. Again, he still goes with the Tombs and Tombs Only routine so that means the 20 years building time is still in and I don't see how this could work in that time span.

Point #2 in the next post.

[Minimalist]

Brier thinks that Houdin has figured out what the Grand Gallery is for. He sees it as a huge counterweight system needed to get the enormous granite (60-70 ton) blocks up to the "King's Chamber." The idea is that a cradle on rollers is built to slide down the gallery. The cradle is roped out the top of the pyramid (at this point only about 1/3 built) to the sleds carrying the granite blocks. Releasing the cradle to travel down pulls the block up the big straight ramp that seemed so pointless if you were going to use an internal ramp from Part One.

It seems ingenious but this why I hope that Digit is able to see the film. We have a 70 ton stone sitting on a sled at the bottom of a ramp with a 7degree angle. To maintain a 7 degree angle and go 200 feet up in the air this ramp has to be around 1400 feet long or so. The Grand Gallery itself is a little under 160 feet long and you have to allow some space for the cradle. So, for argument let us say that the cradle can travel 150 feet. My understanding of a counterweight is that in order to pull the 70 ton stone UP the external straight ramp the weight has to be bigger than the load it is pulling. How much bigger? That's why we need our engineer. But THAT does not seem like the problem. Let's assume that we have a 71 ton counterweight and it pulls the cargo 150 feet up the external ramp before coming to a rest at the bottom of the Grand Gallery. The stone is still 1250 feet from the top of the pyramid and WHO and HOW are they going to pull the counterweight back up to the top of the Grand Gallery for the next 150 feet? The angle in the Gallery is not a gentle 7 degrees it is more like 28 degrees. It just seems that in order to use this system you would have to figure out a way to pull the cradle UP to the top of the Grand Gallery ten times in order to get a single 70 ton stone up to the King's Chamber.

[Leona Conner]

I watched that program this afternoon. Question: In order to have something like a "tunnel" don't you have to have something it goes through. Don't you need walls ceilings and a floor to drag the blocks on. How did that stuff get there and why bother to make a tunnel to build something already there?

Maybe I shoud have DVR'd it because my brain is kinda tired after going to Atlanta yesterday. A group from the local AIA chapter went down to see the King Tut exhibit (a disapointment) and the First Emperor exhibit with the Terracotta Army (that.... was.... awesome.) Making plans to see it again before it closes, this time durng the week to avoid the crowd and I do mean crowd.

[Minimalist]

Yes, to answer your question Leona. And it doesn't make a lot of sense. Although, he did give me an idea but again....can't be done in twenty years.

I have to think about it a bit more.

[Frank Harrist]

I'm envisioning some kind of ratcheting device to haul the counterweigth/cradle back up. We sure they didn't have pulleys? I like the counterweight thing. I mentioned something like that before. Also, there was room for cranes on the flat top of the pyramid structure as it went up. they wouldn't be mounted on a narrow shelf as Brier showed. Not too sure about the inernal ramp, though it does kinda make sense.

[Minimalist]

We sure they didn't have pulleys?

I'm not but the Egyptologists are. No pulleys, no cranes, no winches, no iron tools....just ropes, sleds and copper chisels. Brier was showing basically a shadouf as a crane and it has a limited span. How high up could the platform get before the shadouf couldn't reach the ground?

What I'm wondering is this. The argument against the external wrap-around ramp is that it would obscure the sight-lines for the architects. Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that a base is excavated and the first course...or even couple of courses of masonry, were piled up. A short ramp would suffice to get blocks up to a 12 foot level ( 4 foot blocks times 3). Using the 7 degree incline the ramp would be less than 100 feel long which is a snap.

Now, suppose that instead of building the entire pyramid from the bottom up, you instead work only on the central core? Look at this photo of the Meidum pyramid which collapsed.



When Meidum fell down the inner core remained and the outside collapsed. Why could they not have used wrap around ramps around the core, build it all the way to the top and install the cap stone? There are no angles on the core to be obscured and the height to the base is a mathematical formula that they must have been able to work out. Once the cap is in place you start filling in the rest of the pyramid on the way down. The architects would be able to check their angles as the work progressed but they would be checking (and adjusting) from the top instead of the bottom. The ramp would thus disappear as the workers went lower thereby obliterating the evidence of it. You might even get to a point where you were building on both sides of the ramp thereby creating an "internal" ramp of sorts which could be filled in with rubble by the retiring workers thereby creating the gravitational anomaly that the French team detected? Such a ramp would be in the open and thus illuminated by the sun and wide enough for the crews and their sleds coming down to pass by other crews going up.

Well, that's my idea.

The counterweight idea looks good except for the problem of getting it back to the top for the next pull. If you notice, Brier didn't even mention that little fly in the ointment. It was a curious omission, IMHO.

[Digit]

Sorry Min, two days after starting the down load I gave up!
Forget rollers, unless they are all machined to the same diameter they become wedges, sleds? certainly, but that amount of traffic would leave substantial tracks in the floor, so unless the floors were either false, or replaced, we can kill that idea as well I think. Assuming that I've understood the posts correctly that is Min.

[Minimalist]

LOL. Best laid plans of mice and men usually work out about the same.

The rollers were in the Grand Gallery and were part of a system for this "cradle" he envisioned. The cradle would be full of heavy stones and be heavy enough to serve as a counterweight for large (70-ton) granite beams that made up the King's Chamber. No indication was given as to how you could get the cradle back to the top of the gallery for the next pull.

[Minimalist]

I suppose they could have kept throwing fresh sand on top of the ramp for the sleds to slide on. That would only take one or two guys with rakes following the block. The other thing they insist on is a guy pouring water in front of the sled to lubricate it. Normally I would think that would merely make mud but perhaps in Egypt it dries very fast?

[Digit]

I was thinking about the internal ramps that you mentioned in part one Min. Even Granite will be worn by grains of sand embedded in the sled runners.

Roy.

[Digit]

Our posts crossed Min. Based on normal engineering procedures the addition of water would logically remove worn sand grains and replace them with nice new sharp ones!

Roy.

[Minimalist]

The internal ramps were pictured as being a few feel wide and running up the entire side of the pyramid at a 7 degree angle. At the bottom this would be a 700 foot straightaway and, I should think, resemble a long, narrow, dark oven for the crews.

They showed no way for the men to get back down with their sled for the next block. Another oversight.

[Digit]

Minor difficulty Min! Minor difficulty. Like my post about Toba, don't let logic get in the way of a hobby horse eh?

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Perhaps they just climbed down the side? They made no effort to show how one block could be placed every minute for 20 years anyway. What is a little thing like "getting down" compared to that?

[Digit]

You have to admit that some of these theories make alien intervention sound much more realistic though Min!

Roy.