Paleo"Indian" Caucasians

[uniface]

recommended as an interesting and well-done (albeit grossly biased) account of an issue that won't go away.

http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedric ... nnewic.htm

[E.P. Grondine]

I may be way off base here, but this is my take on it right now.

By the way, I have been wrong before, and reserve the right to be wrong both now and at future times.

While I don't have any problem with Ainu related populations in western North America, particularly on the coast, with possible later survivals well inland, why some people continue to build imaginary European (Caucasian) empires in North America is really just one of those things. As near as I can make out it is related to guilt over the conquest and the genocide, more than occasionally combined with either racism and/or cult religious beliefs.

But generally, as uniface argues for a north atlantic ice sheet crossing, none of these apply.

Problem 1 : take a look a clovis distribution:
http://www.nps.gov/history/seac/outline ... source.htm

The tech enters along the south coast, and rapidly spreads from there, most likely spread some 500 miles or so a year by people following migrating game, and then adopted by other people they meet up with.

Problem 2:
C my DNA shows up at the tip of South America, indicating a very early C mt DNA crossing. C mt DNA is found in Iroquoian populations.

Problem 3:
We have a perfect and pretty well documented route for Solutrean tech to have come to the Americas, which is from the Sahara river region, to Pedra Furada, Brazil, and then north. While we lack DNA evidence, due to both impacts and the genocide, colonial ethnographic records did survive.

As always, I also reserve the right to change my opinion as more data comes in.

Why a transmission via Africa is dismissed is another one of those questions.

[kbs2244]

“and then adopted by other people they meet up with.”

And just where did they come from?

BTW, I have nothing against an Africa to SA crossing and then north for the technology.
The question is not the technology, it is the people.

[E.P. Grondine]

“and then adopted by other people they meet up with.”

And just where did they come from?

BTW, I have nothing against an Africa to SA crossing and then north for the technology.
The question is not the technology, it is the people.

A shorter summary of my current understanding:
C mt DNA (Iroquoian) via Beringia after say 45,000 BCE, moving clear to the tip of South America
A mt DNA (Algonquin sea turtle hunters on the Pacific coast, Siouxian inland hunters)
say after 36,000 or 27,000 BCE.
B mt DNA and D mt DNA via boat to South America, time unknown, but after the invention of boats (say 60,000 BCE) and their adaptation by family units (time unknown)

The group which crossed from Africa (35,000 BCE) was extincted in South America by the Rio Cuarto impacts in 2,360 BCE, and in the islands and coastal North America by the Great Atlantic Impact Mega-tsunami (ca 1,000 BCE) with only the Yuchi and Oconachee surviving, and they were genocidally extreminated in the conquest with only a handful of survivors today. I don't know if mt DNA survives among them.

I do not exclude the possibility of Ainu showing up on the West Coast, nor of them having later survivors. Since DNA sample material can be properly re-interred along with all other remains, I can not agree with the court or that nations' decision in the Kennewick case. But it was not and is not my decision to make.

X mt DNA (some surviving in other peoples) crosses from Europe 8,350 BCE.

[uniface]

Lots of interesting balls in the air tonight (so to speak). I only wish my brain weren't too tired to deal with them.

One puzzlement that arises is how Solturean technology is supposed to have come from North Africa. I wasn't aware that it ever crossed the Mediterranean from Europe (?)

[Minimalist]

Even more to the point (pun intended) is that Dennis Stanford has done a remarkable job linking the Clovis technique with Solutrean as opposed to Siberian microblade technology.

[E.P. Grondine]

Lots of interesting balls in the air tonight (so to speak). I only wish my brain weren't too tired to deal with them.

One puzzlement that arises is how Solturean technology is supposed to have come from North Africa. I wasn't aware that it ever crossed the Mediterranean from Europe (?)

boats, and the early coastal sites in Africa are under hundreds of feet of water, as elsewhere.

[uniface]

Thank you.

So it's essentially a fortuitous accident that of all the (known) Solturean locales, the one with the closest similarities to Clovis is in Spain (just a hop, a skip & a jump across the Mediterranean) ?

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi uniface - that is spelled "Solutrean", not "Solturrean", I think - I've made inversions like that myself, so its no big problem.

I suppose that only future excavations or new data will resolve migration paths. In any case, I think that the archaeology of the North West coast of Africa has been retarded for a long time due to wars in the area, and I am hoping for peace.