Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

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Ishtar
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Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

Post by Ishtar »

This is the first time that I've seen a conventional archaeologist (with a grant to find out) consider this possibility, and it is from Australian archaeologist Mike Morwood as he begins further excavations of Homo floresiensis related finds on Flores.

It starts off with all the usual stuff about how the disccovery of HF has turned the theory of the evolution of man on its head, so I've gone straight in and pulled out the relevant extracts:
...It would mean contemplating the possibility that not all the answers to human evolution lie in Africa, and that our development was more complex than previously thought.

Critics, however, dismissed the hobbit's discovery as nothing extraordinary. They continue to argue that the hobbit, just 1 meter (3 feet) tall with a brain the size of a baby's, was nothing more than a deformed human. Its strange appearance, they say, could be blamed on a range of genetic disorders that cause the body and brain to shrink.

The feud has played out in top scientific journals. But a growing consensus has emerged among experts on human origin that this is indeed a separate and primitive species that lived in relatively modern times - 17,000 to 100,000 years ago. The November issue of the highly respected Journal of Human Evolution was dedicated to the Flores findings and included a dozen studies supporting the hobbit as a new species.

Chris Stringer, research leader in human origins at the Natural History Museum in London, said the critics are "very much in the minority now." He said that he just returned from a meeting in Arizona of more than two dozen experts on human origins and found widespread support there for the new-species theory. No one, he said, "took the view that this was some weird, pathological freak."

William L. Jungers, a paleoanthropologist at Stony Brook University Medical Center who co-edited the Journal of Human Evolution issue, insisted the debate was over. He has published a study of the hobbit's feet which found it had traits associated with both modern humans and apes.

"This is a new species that cannot be explained by any known pathology," Jungers said.

The mounting evidence has prompted Australian archaeologist Mike Morwood and his team to expand their research to the Soa Basin on Flores and the nearby Indonesian island of Sulawesi to answer several questions: Who were the hobbit's ancestors? Where did they come from? What were their interactions, if any, with the modern humans of the time? Why are they extinct?

Africa is central to any narrative about human evolution because it is believed that Homo erectus was the first hominid to leave the continent 1.8 million years ago, and most hominid fossils have been found there.

But the discovery of the hobbit, with its primitive traits, suggests that important stages in hominid evolution may have occurred in Asia, said Morwood, the coordinator of the hobbit dig. For example, he said, it may turn out that Homo erectus evolved in Asia.

"For many people, this was totally unexpected and indicates how little we know about hominid evolution, particularly in Asia," which may have "played a prominent role in some major developments in human evolution," he said.

Stringer, for one, believes the hobbit's ancestors could have been a forerunner of Homo erectus. If fossils are found to prove that, he said it would upend the belief that erectus was the first of our ancestors to make it out of Africa and eventually migrate to China and the Indonesian island of Java.

Instead, something more primitive may have left Africa, evolved into erectus and then returned to the continent.

"We'd have to say something got out earlier than that and we don't have any record of its evolution in the whole of Asia," Stringer said. "That means there is a complete missing chapter of the story of human evolution in Asia if that is correct. That would be very interesting and important if true."

Still, no one who supports the new-species theory suggests the hobbit is a direct ancestor of modern humans. Rather, they believe it represents a previously unknown branch of a pre-modern, hominid lineage...

"Homo floresiensis is the only species out of Africa with those primitive body proportions," Morwood said. "You go to Africa and you are talking about hominids which are 2 million to 3 million years old. Here, you have a small-bodied, small-brain hominid that lived to a mere 17,000 years ago."

...If it is a new species, then who were the hobbits' relatives?

One theory is that the hobbit actually evolved from the much taller and big-brained Homo erectus.

Once Homo erectus reached Flores, according to this theory, it succumbed to what is called the island rule, where animals bigger than rabbits shrink in size because of limited food, and those smaller grow larger because of the absence of predators.

There are plenty of examples of that on Flores, where elephants shrank to the size of cows, while rats grew as big as dogs.

But Morwood, Jungers and others note that this evolutionary process has never been documented in a human population.

They believe the hobbit is descended from a more primitive relative of Homo erectus such as Homo habilis, which lived as early as 2.3 million years ago - before hominids are believed to have left Africa. They maintain that the ancestor evolved over nearly a million years to become Homo floresiensis.

To settle the debate, Morwood says, they need to find bones of the hobbit's ancestors and see whether they resemble Homo erectus or a more primitive hominid.

Already, the team has identified charred and chipped remains of Komodo dragons and pygmy elephants, proving the hobbits cooked over fires. Stone flakes found in the cave show these tiny people hunted and scavenged much larger animals.

This year, the team plans to excavate a spot around a boulder at Liang Bua that is among the most promising untouched areas of the cave. On their wish list is another hobbit skull, more teeth and wrist bones.

"It would be nice to have a whole complete male," Morwood said.
From Archaeology News
Minimalist
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

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Keep this up, Ish, and you'll force them to rename Out of Africa to "Back to Africa."
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

Post by Ishtar »

Actually, Min, I am going to posit an Out-of-India-Into-Africa-Out-of-Africa-Into-Australia-Out-of-Australia movement, after which we have what's technically known as the hokey-kokey ... in out, in out, shake it all about.. around the South Pacific islands, followed by a steamy Argentine tango across South America after which everyone formed a congo line which went straight up the Americas, leading into a sort of bosa nova along the kelp corridor into Greenland-Iceland-Scandinavia and finally a Viennese waltz across Europe and arriving in Britain just in time for tea! :D Whaddya think?
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

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Out-of-India-Into-Africa-Out-of-Africa-Into-Australia-Out-of-Australia

OoIIiAOoAItAOaA?


You really are no good at acronyms, dear. It will never catch on.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

Post by Ishtar »

There's a lot of hoo-haa in the archaeology news about Homo sapiens being in India 14,000 earlier than they were supposed to be there. This is as a result of Michael Petraglia's dig in Andhra Pradesh which is finding evidence of Homo sapiens there 74,000 years ago, buried under the ash of the Toba eruption.

However, there is evidence of Homo sapiens in India long long before that, in fact, 120,000 years ago, and there is no evidence that they took a route from Africa to get there, as there isn't with those in Andhra Pradesh either. It is just not sure, at the moment, if they are Homo sapiens or Homo sapiens sapiens.

There is a post on my forum, Ishtar's Gate, about this from James Harrod, Ph.D. who specialises in prehistoric art, religion and semiotics. If you'd like to read it, you can find it here.
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

Post by Sam Salmon »

I'm very very wary of an Asia-First Anything.

Living in Vancouver a person is exposed to a lot of Chinese Govt propaganda, some quite blatant and some more subtle.

One thing is sure-these are nasty nasty operators, swine of the lowest most odoriferous order who will use any pretense and excuse to further their China-first aims.

And they aim to dominate every thing and every one.
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

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Sam Salmon wrote:I'm very very wary of an Asia-First Anything.

Living in Vancouver a person is exposed to a lot of Chinese Govt propaganda, some quite blatant and some more subtle.

One thing is sure-these are nasty nasty operators, swine of the lowest most odoriferous order who will use any pretense and excuse to further their China-first aims.

And they aim to dominate every thing and every one.
Whoo-eeee! :lol: Unlike the nice neutral Rockefeller Foundation and the Carnegie Institute who fund a lot of the American archaeology work, of course. :lol:

(Still, I keep forgetting to remember ~ fish don't realise they're swimming in water, even Salmon it seems!).

Anyway, Sam, this is India and not China. I know they may all look the same to someone who's never been there, but I can assure you, they're not and in fact, they are deadly enemies.

Secondly, these digs are not necessarily being carried out or led by Indians. Dr Mike Petraglia who is digging around these areas and has written about them, mentioning their dates, is a fine, upstanding, British archaeologist from Oxford University who has had books published by the Smithsonian. Look here's his resume. He's even WHITE! :lol:
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

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There has always been a tinge of nationalism in trying to recreate the past....not to mention a hint of racism at times as well.

One must guard against exaggerated claims.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Digit
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

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Well as I'm anti black/white/yellow/blue and candy stripe, plus the obvious fact that God is an Englishman Min I perhaps had better say nothing!

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Sam Salmon
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

Post by Sam Salmon »

Ishtar wrote:Anyway, Sam, this is India and not China. I know they may all look the same to someone who's never been there, but I can assure you, they're not and in fact, they are deadly enemies.
Madam-you have no clue where I've been and not been-nor do you know the teeming multicultural milieu I now live in.

Save your small minded condescension for your own blind leading the chronically credulous corner of cyberspace Please.

Note I said Asia-First and as Min says Nationalism is a stinking mess that clings to everything.
Minimalist wrote:There has always been a tinge of nationalism in trying to recreate the past....not to mention a hint of racism at times as well.....
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

Post by Ishtar »

I love it when you call me Madam! :D
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Digit wrote:
plus the obvious fact that God is an Englishman Min I perhaps had better say nothing!
You changed careers again?
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

Post by Digit »

Not likely! After a 6000 yr appenticeship I'm just getting the hang of the job! Actually my familial grandparents fled from your country! :lol:

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Minimalist wrote:There has always been a tinge of nationalism in trying to recreate the past....not to mention a hint of racism at times as well.

One must guard against exaggerated claims.
A "tinge"...?
How about bald-faced hypocrisy:
Wednesday, March 17, 2010

The Texas twist: textbooks unfit for consumption

Texas Gov. Rick Perry knew what he was doing when he declared with a straight face that he might lead a Lone Star State movement to secede from the rest of the United States and go it alone because of Washington policies. Such brash, wacky talk helped him beat the far more moderate, even-keeled Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison in the GOP primary.

Perry offered more big talk, which Texans relish. Yet, it's not big talk, but lunacy that's happening over at the state's Board of Education. The 10-member majority consists of unabashed far-out conservatives who are vowing to help create a new national group-think tilted toward their politics by approving social studies textbooks they deem historically correct and ideologically pure. The five-member minority's opposition has been futile.

Don't scoff. As the largest state buyer of school textbooks, Texas, in effect, forces publishers to adopt the Lone Star versions that are also sold in other states.

So, reasons the Texas education board, if other states teach young people what Texans believe about American history, in a generation or so the adult mindset will be canted toward conservatism.

Not all Texans are sanguine about this attempt to twist, rewrite and blur history.
Dallas Morning News columnist Jacquielynn Floyd, among others, writes that "this whacked-out troop of under qualified ideologues ... embarrass us, humiliate us, make us look like a bunch of goobers."
A list of inclusions and omissions as well as twisted history suggests the board is unapologetically racist, revisionist and obsessed by what they consider "liberal."
The board eliminated listing eight Tejanos (Texas Mexicans) who died alongside Davey Crockett at the Alamo 174 years ago. It de-emphasized Thomas Jefferson and ordered more history about Confederate President Jefferson Davis.
The board also included data suggesting it agreed with Sen. Joe McCarthy's allegations that the U.S. State Department was crawling with communists in the 1950s (never proven by McCarthy).

Hip-hop, mostly a black phenomenon, also was rejected for inclusion in the textbooks as an influence on culture.
The board majority also rejected requirements that teachers and textbooks cover the late Sen. Edward Kennedy and Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor, but increased textbook attention to President Ronald Reagan. The board has until May to change its mind. Not likely.

Textbook publishers should have the courage to print a Texas version and then protect the rest of the nation from this perilous, poisonous political demagoguery with more sensible versions for other American students.
http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005130499
Minimalist
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Re: Homo erectus could have evolved from Asia

Post by Minimalist »

Texas is a strange place. More assholes per sq inch than any other place on earth, apparently.

We get a lot of Texans on my atheism boards...they are looking for some place to talk to reasonable people because there just aren't enough in Texas.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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