Nice discussion on Maize

[Minimalist]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/scien ... ature.html

The most impressive aspect of the maize story is what it tells us about the capabilities of agriculturalists 9,000 years ago. These people were living in small groups and shifting their settlements seasonally. Yet they were able to transform a grass with many inconvenient, unwanted features into a high-yielding, easily harvested food crop. The domestication process must have occurred in many stages over a considerable length of time as many different, independent characteristics of the plant were modified.

[Sam Salmon]

'Maíz es nuestra Madre'

[Minimalist]

I just can't get over the concept of stone age bio-engineering, Sam.

There are times when I think everything we have been told about history is wrong.

[Digit]

I just can't get over the concept of stone age bio-engineering, Sam.

And rightly so Min as it was obviously written by someone with zero knowledge of plant genetics etc.

The domestication process must have occurred in many stages over a considerable length of time as many different, independent characteristics of the plant were modified.

'Look after the kids Zog I'm off to domesticate a new plant.'

The ancestor of the edible carrot here in the UK is 'orrible in taste and difficult to see as the ancestor. Apparently someone found a new species years ago in the wild and domesticated that! The article points out how little is the genetic difference between the wild and domesticated plants and I'll wager a pound to a pinch of snuff that it was a one off series of genetic changes that produced the domestic plant.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Teosinte still exists. Someone must have tried to replicate the process?

[Digit]

Couldn't say Min, but with the carrot all attempts have failed.
I don't know if a genetic comparison has been made between the wild and domestic types though.
If the difference between the domestic and the wild Maize is genetic I fail to see how any replication could be carried out. Wild Maize will produce wild Maize exactly as the domestic form also breeds true.

Roy.

[Johnny]

Ugg. Painful timing for this one. Lost my entire crop yesterday. Great education in what native americans might have faced in sustaining a successful crop here in Colorado, I suppose. Wind == Death.

[Digit]

Which leads me nicely to this....

began raising livestock and growing food through deliberate planting. These advances provided more reliable sources of food

...as something I have always had serious doubts about.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

"Reliability" is one thing. But at what cost? Lower nutritional value. More labor intensive. Social stratification.

Might have been happier if we just kept picking up roots and berries.

[Digit]

Indeed Min. Frankly I find it very difficult to accept that change was voluntary.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

I also imagine that it was gradual with some people settling down to raise crops and others continuing the traditional way of life. A generation or two of that and you have a schism.

Now, the question becomes did the ones who continued the old way look at the others and say "hey! that's a good idea" or, did the farmers build fences around their fields and cut them off from foraging?


Given my generally pessimistic view of human nature I'd lean to option #2.

[Johnny]

I also imagine that it was gradual with some people settling down to raise crops and others continuing the traditional way of life. A generation or two of that and you have a schism.

Now, the question becomes did the ones who continued the old way look at the others and say "hey! that's a good idea" or, did the farmers build fences around their fields and cut them off from foraging?

I have a feeling that the adoption of agriculture in the Americas was actually super-quick and that it was only the settling down that was gradual. When you're dealing with something as high priority as feeding your family, you tend to stick with what works for the majority of your supply and gamble with agriculture on the side. Hunting and gathering remain your mainstays but you start purposely planting crops in un-managed clusters to include them in your gathering as they mature and produce. Everyone has their favorite spots, but no one gets too attached yet.

Later down the road, after a few generations of that, you've learned a few tricks to improve your harvest: you know where to plant, you sow more land, your plants are more domesticated and with bigger harvests you start to think about settling down to do this full time...maybe even trading your surplus for meat and other items. Now you have property that isn't just a bone comb or flint dagger and it's time to start building fences and becoming more protective as your reliance on agriculture increases. You develop new tools to make the work easier and off we go. Civilisation gets in a hurry.

[Digit]

I have a feeling that the adoption of agriculture in the Americas was actually super-quick and that it was only the settling down that was gradual. When you're dealing with something as high priority as feeding your family, you tend to stick with what works for the majority of your supply and gamble with agriculture on the side. Hunting and gathering remain your mainstays but you start purposely planting crops in un-managed clusters to include them in your gathering as they mature and produce. Everyone has their favorite spots, but no one gets too attached yet.

That's exactly the way I see it as well.

Roy.

[uniface]

I just can't get over the concept of stone age bio-engineering, Sam.

There are times when I think everything we have been told about history is wrong.

Somebody hand that man a cigar !!!!!!!

[Digit]

The worrying thing is that he is a biologist, and to make the suggestion that maize as we know it was a deliberate and planned act is ridiculous.
And gentleman, is does not prove that comment, it simply establishes that some people do not accept that what they are taught is correct.
The idea that changes occur in small steps died with Darwin, so the cigar is unwarranted.

Roy.