I think Sheppard will enjoy seeing the materials at this site:
http://asalas.org/pictures.php
http://asalas.org/links.php
the link for the tsunami paper is not working right now:
Tsunami in front of the North-West coast of Africa 2000-3000 years ago? - IFM-GEOMAR - 03/2010
more on Atlantic tsunamis
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
I love it!!
The legend lives on.
A classic case of "where there is smoke there must be fire"
And there is some heavy smoke here.
Of course, if no you-tube and not in English, then it didn't happen.
The legend lives on.
A classic case of "where there is smoke there must be fire"
And there is some heavy smoke here.
Of course, if no you-tube and not in English, then it didn't happen.
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Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16033
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
(only after a thorough archaeological investigation could we be sure of the age of the ruins).
I take it that means that such an investigation has not been done?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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E.P. Grondine
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
Pretty much so - and you have to remember that it is highly likely that this site was hit by an impact trunami, and very likely hit several times at that.Minimalist wrote:(only after a thorough archaeological investigation could we be sure of the age of the ruins).
I take it that means that such an investigation has not been done?
Coastal NW Africa is also relatively unexplored in terms of hominid evolution - particularly in the 50,000 BCE range.
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E.P. Grondine
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
Once again, kbs - the tale of Atlantis was a morality tale concocted by Plato.kbs2244 wrote:I love it!!
The legend lives on.
A classic case of "where there is smoke there must be fire"
And there is some heavy smoke here.
Of course, if no you-tube and not in English, then it didn't happen.
The question is what sources did Plato use to concoct that tale.
See my "Man and Impact in the Americas" for a fuller discussion.
Why that tale has so intensely fascinated people is another question -
and there are many fiction writers who would like an answer to that one
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E.P. Grondine
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
Now its time to try and locate the work of historian
Sherif el-Edrissi
in translation.
Sherif el-Edrissi
in translation.
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E.P. Grondine
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
It look liker this is the fellow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Idrisi
and a most interesting one at that.
The Tabula Rogeriana was drawn by Al-Idrisi in 1154 for the Norman King Roger II of Sicily, after a stay of eighteen years at his court, where he worked on the commentaries and illustrations of the map. The map, with legends written in Arabic, while showing the Eurasian continent in its entirety, only shows the northern part of the African continent and lacks details of the Horn of Africa and Southeast Asia.
For Roger it was inscribed on a massive DISC OF SOLID SILVER, TWO METERS IN DIAMETER.
(Surely a landmark in cartography, one which is seldom mentioned in western studies.)
On the geographical work of al-Idrisi, S.P. Scott wrote in 1904:
"The compilation of Edrisi marks an era in the history of science. Not only is its historical information most interesting and valuable, but its descriptions of many parts of the earth are still authoritative. For three centuries geographers copied his maps without alteration. The relative position of the lakes which form the Nile, as delineated in his work, does not differ greatly from that established by Baker and Stanley more than seven hundred years afterwards, and their number is the same. The mechanical genius of the author was not inferior to his erudition. The celestial and terrestrial planisphere of silver which he constructed for his royal patron was nearly six feet in diameter, and weighed four hundred and fifty pounds; upon the one side the zodiac and the constellations, upon the other-divided for convenience into segments-the bodies of land and water, with the respective situations of the various countries, were engraved.[4]
Al-Idrisi inspired Islamic geographers such as Ibn Battuta, Ibn Khaldun and Piri Reis. His map also inspired Christopher Columbus and Vasco Da Gama.
Description of islands in the North Sea
Al-Idrisi in his famous Tabula Rogeriana mentioned Irlandah-al-Kabirah (Great Ireland).[6] According to him, "from the extremity of Iceland to that of Great Ireland," the sailing time was "one day." Although historians note that both al-Idrisi and the Norse tend to understate distances, the only location this reference is thought to have possibly pointed to, must likely have been in Greenland.[7]
Description of Chinese trade
Al-Idrisi mentioned that Chinese Junks carried leather, swords, Iron and Silk. He mentions the glassware of the city of Hangzhou and labels Quanzhou's silk as the best.[8]
Al-Idrisi's geographical text, Nuzhat al-Mushtaq, is often cited by proponents of pre-Columbian Andalusian-Americas contact theories. In this text, al-Idrisi wrote the following on the Atlantic Ocean:
"The Commander of the Muslims Ali ibn Yusuf ibn Tashfin sent his admiral Ahmad ibn Umar, better known under the name of Raqsh al-Auzz to attack a certain island in the Atlantic, but he died before doing that. [...] Beyond this ocean of fogs it is not known what exists there. Nobody has the sure knowledge of it, because it is very difficult to traverse it. Its atmosphere is foggy, its waves are very strong, its dangers are perilous, its beasts are terrible, and its winds are full of tempests. There are many islands, some of which are inhabited, others are submerged. No navigator traverses them but bypasses them remaining near their coast. [...] And it was from the town of Lisbon that the adventurers set out known under the name of Mughamarin [Adventurers], penetrated the ocean of fogs and wanted to know what it contained and where it ended. [...] After sailing for twelve more days they perceived an island that seemed to be inhabited, and there were cultivated fields. They sailed that way to see what it contained. But soon barques encircled them and made them prisoners, and transported them to a miserable hamlet situated on the coast. There they landed. The navigators saw there people with red skin; there was not much hair on their body, the hair of their head was straight, and they were of high stature. Their women were of an extraordinary beauty.[17]"
This translation by Professor Muhammad Hamidullah is however questionable, since it reports, after having reached an area of "sticky and stinking waters", the Mugharrarin (also translated as "the adventurers") moved back and first reached an uninhabited island where they found "a huge quantity of sheep the meat of which was bitter and uneatable" and, then, "continued southward" and reached the above reported island where they were soon surrounded by barques and brought to "a village whose inhabitants were often fair-haired with long and flaxen hair and the women of a rare beauty". Among the villagers, one spoke Arabic and asked them where they came from. Then the king of the village ordered them to bring them back to the continent where they were surprised to be welcomed by Berbers.[18][verification needed]
Apart from the marvellous and fanciful reports of this history, the most probable interpretation[citation needed] is that the Mugharrarin reached the Sargasso Sea, a part of the ocean covered by seaweed, which is very close to Bermuda yet one thousand miles away from the American mainland. Then while coming back, they may have landed either on the Azores, or on Madeira or even on the westernmost Canary Island, El Hierro (because of the sheep). Last, the story with the inhabited island might have occurred either on Tenerife or on Gran Canaria, where the Mugharrarin presumably met some Guanche tribe. This would explain why some of them could speak Arabic (some sporadic contacts had been maintained between the Canary Islands and Morocco) and why they were quickly deported to Morocco where they were welcomed by Berbers. Yet, the story reported by Idrisi is an indisputable account of a certain knowledge of the Atlantic Ocean by the Arabs and by their Andalusian and Moroccan vassals.
Furthermore Al-Idrisi writes an account of eight Mugharrarin all from the same family who set sail from Lisbon (Achbona) in the first half of that century and navigated in the seaweed rich seas beyond the Azores.[19]
Idrisi describes an island of cormorants with which Corvo, Cape Verde has been tentatively identified, but on weak grounds.[20]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Idrisi
and a most interesting one at that.
The Tabula Rogeriana was drawn by Al-Idrisi in 1154 for the Norman King Roger II of Sicily, after a stay of eighteen years at his court, where he worked on the commentaries and illustrations of the map. The map, with legends written in Arabic, while showing the Eurasian continent in its entirety, only shows the northern part of the African continent and lacks details of the Horn of Africa and Southeast Asia.
For Roger it was inscribed on a massive DISC OF SOLID SILVER, TWO METERS IN DIAMETER.
(Surely a landmark in cartography, one which is seldom mentioned in western studies.)
On the geographical work of al-Idrisi, S.P. Scott wrote in 1904:
"The compilation of Edrisi marks an era in the history of science. Not only is its historical information most interesting and valuable, but its descriptions of many parts of the earth are still authoritative. For three centuries geographers copied his maps without alteration. The relative position of the lakes which form the Nile, as delineated in his work, does not differ greatly from that established by Baker and Stanley more than seven hundred years afterwards, and their number is the same. The mechanical genius of the author was not inferior to his erudition. The celestial and terrestrial planisphere of silver which he constructed for his royal patron was nearly six feet in diameter, and weighed four hundred and fifty pounds; upon the one side the zodiac and the constellations, upon the other-divided for convenience into segments-the bodies of land and water, with the respective situations of the various countries, were engraved.[4]
Al-Idrisi inspired Islamic geographers such as Ibn Battuta, Ibn Khaldun and Piri Reis. His map also inspired Christopher Columbus and Vasco Da Gama.
Description of islands in the North Sea
Al-Idrisi in his famous Tabula Rogeriana mentioned Irlandah-al-Kabirah (Great Ireland).[6] According to him, "from the extremity of Iceland to that of Great Ireland," the sailing time was "one day." Although historians note that both al-Idrisi and the Norse tend to understate distances, the only location this reference is thought to have possibly pointed to, must likely have been in Greenland.[7]
Description of Chinese trade
Al-Idrisi mentioned that Chinese Junks carried leather, swords, Iron and Silk. He mentions the glassware of the city of Hangzhou and labels Quanzhou's silk as the best.[8]
Al-Idrisi's geographical text, Nuzhat al-Mushtaq, is often cited by proponents of pre-Columbian Andalusian-Americas contact theories. In this text, al-Idrisi wrote the following on the Atlantic Ocean:
"The Commander of the Muslims Ali ibn Yusuf ibn Tashfin sent his admiral Ahmad ibn Umar, better known under the name of Raqsh al-Auzz to attack a certain island in the Atlantic, but he died before doing that. [...] Beyond this ocean of fogs it is not known what exists there. Nobody has the sure knowledge of it, because it is very difficult to traverse it. Its atmosphere is foggy, its waves are very strong, its dangers are perilous, its beasts are terrible, and its winds are full of tempests. There are many islands, some of which are inhabited, others are submerged. No navigator traverses them but bypasses them remaining near their coast. [...] And it was from the town of Lisbon that the adventurers set out known under the name of Mughamarin [Adventurers], penetrated the ocean of fogs and wanted to know what it contained and where it ended. [...] After sailing for twelve more days they perceived an island that seemed to be inhabited, and there were cultivated fields. They sailed that way to see what it contained. But soon barques encircled them and made them prisoners, and transported them to a miserable hamlet situated on the coast. There they landed. The navigators saw there people with red skin; there was not much hair on their body, the hair of their head was straight, and they were of high stature. Their women were of an extraordinary beauty.[17]"
This translation by Professor Muhammad Hamidullah is however questionable, since it reports, after having reached an area of "sticky and stinking waters", the Mugharrarin (also translated as "the adventurers") moved back and first reached an uninhabited island where they found "a huge quantity of sheep the meat of which was bitter and uneatable" and, then, "continued southward" and reached the above reported island where they were soon surrounded by barques and brought to "a village whose inhabitants were often fair-haired with long and flaxen hair and the women of a rare beauty". Among the villagers, one spoke Arabic and asked them where they came from. Then the king of the village ordered them to bring them back to the continent where they were surprised to be welcomed by Berbers.[18][verification needed]
Apart from the marvellous and fanciful reports of this history, the most probable interpretation[citation needed] is that the Mugharrarin reached the Sargasso Sea, a part of the ocean covered by seaweed, which is very close to Bermuda yet one thousand miles away from the American mainland. Then while coming back, they may have landed either on the Azores, or on Madeira or even on the westernmost Canary Island, El Hierro (because of the sheep). Last, the story with the inhabited island might have occurred either on Tenerife or on Gran Canaria, where the Mugharrarin presumably met some Guanche tribe. This would explain why some of them could speak Arabic (some sporadic contacts had been maintained between the Canary Islands and Morocco) and why they were quickly deported to Morocco where they were welcomed by Berbers. Yet, the story reported by Idrisi is an indisputable account of a certain knowledge of the Atlantic Ocean by the Arabs and by their Andalusian and Moroccan vassals.
Furthermore Al-Idrisi writes an account of eight Mugharrarin all from the same family who set sail from Lisbon (Achbona) in the first half of that century and navigated in the seaweed rich seas beyond the Azores.[19]
Idrisi describes an island of cormorants with which Corvo, Cape Verde has been tentatively identified, but on weak grounds.[20]
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E.P. Grondine
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
oh joy - google has scanned French translations, but my French has been severely hit by my stroke.
Now to try to find English translations (or English citations) good enough to get me to the right sections.
So far, no reconstructions of the silver disk map.
By the way, all of the materials on Moroccan archaeology are in French, and thus generally ignored by many archaeologists.
The same thing goes for the Canaries.
Option 2 - try to find OCR French text, run it through machine translator.
There are two known likely Atlantic impact mega-tsunamis, one around 1,000 BCE, the other at 580 CE.
If Idrisi has anything on them, particularly from Morocco...
Now to try to find English translations (or English citations) good enough to get me to the right sections.
So far, no reconstructions of the silver disk map.
By the way, all of the materials on Moroccan archaeology are in French, and thus generally ignored by many archaeologists.
The same thing goes for the Canaries.
Option 2 - try to find OCR French text, run it through machine translator.
There are two known likely Atlantic impact mega-tsunamis, one around 1,000 BCE, the other at 580 CE.
If Idrisi has anything on them, particularly from Morocco...
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E.P. Grondine
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
It turns out there is a 1906 english translation by C. Raymond Beazley, which should be enough to get to the proper sections of the French translation.
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E.P. Grondine
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
I need to note here that
1) Researchers raised in Judeo-Christian traditions tend to lump all impact tsunami-accounts into one, and then identify it with Noah's Flood.
2) Nu age Researchers generally look for one lost civilization, when there were many,
and then play fast and loose with dates and everything else.
I need to get to that Beazley translation
1) Researchers raised in Judeo-Christian traditions tend to lump all impact tsunami-accounts into one, and then identify it with Noah's Flood.
2) Nu age Researchers generally look for one lost civilization, when there were many,
and then play fast and loose with dates and everything else.
I need to get to that Beazley translation
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E.P. Grondine
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
Thanks, Frank.Frank Harrist wrote: You got my attention. Keep it up!
Given that Idrisi's information may relate to impact events, it is a top priority for me now.
I will post here what I find.
Given your interests, I think you could help identifying the location of the Haustecan trading post on the coast of Texas which Cabeza de Vaca visited.
The problem is inserting the secret location into the existing accounts.
Aside from that, there's the problem of the location of the Tanesa in 1544, as Swanton's solution for their latter location does not work.
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E.P. Grondine
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
1) "these mountains were at one time inhabited by a numerous population, but the All Mighty purged the country..."
Mountains of the Stars
Mountains of the Stars
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E.P. Grondine
Re: more on Atlantic tsunamis
Not too bad for day one, with all of the distractions.
I do have a headache now.
More tomorrow.
I do have a headache now.
More tomorrow.