The Politics of Archaeology

[Beagle]

http://armenianow.com/?action=viewArtic ... D=&lng=eng

“This proves the so-called disputed areas are native Armenian. We can prove to the international community each stone and monument in the liberated territories is Armenian,” says Hamlet Petrosyan, the Head of the expedition organized by the Institute of Archeology and Ethnography at the RA National Academy of Sciences. The dig was financed by the Yerkir Union of NGOs for Repatriation and Settlement (www.yerkir.org).

This article from Archaeologica News. Here we have a territorial claim being "proven by recently discovered archaeological evidence. There are many examples of the science being used for political purposes.

Going back at least to the Nazi regime, governments have been known to both employ and/or restrict scientific discovery concerning an areas' archaeological past.

This is a daily consideration for scientists in the middle east.

[bandit]

Sounds like a "my toys are bigger than your toys" ploy.

I would have to see some other articles, this one claims "proof" but I don't read anything in it that would substantiate it.

They seem to have only dated it to a particular period. which to me doesn't prove ownership.

[Guest]

Going back at least to the Nazi regime, governments have been known to both employ and/or restrict scientific discovery concerning an areas' archaeological past

but isn't this standard procedure by the ruling governments to maintain their hold on lands? jacobovich (i know no one likes him) pointed this out in his documentary and Mazir pointed this out as taking place in Israel.

so what is the solution that is equitable and fair?

[Minimalist]

but isn't this standard procedure by the ruling governments to maintain their hold on lands?

No. It's a distraction from reality. If you lived in Pennsylvania and some guy knocked on your door and said:

"Hi. I'm a Delaware Indian. My family used to live here. Get out."

You'd either shoot him yourself or call the cops.

Virtually everyplace on earth was occupied by someone else sometime in the past. So what?

[Beagle]

They seem to have only dated it to a particular period. which to me doesn't prove ownership.

I think that's the whole point Bandit. What period of time, and for how long, would constitute this state or that state as the true owners of the land?

But the larger question is how these international disputes impact science and archaeology.

[Starflower]

The problem I see is if they are disposing of anything that doesn't fit in with their preconceived notions. As happened recently on the Araxes:

http://www.archaeology.org/online/featu ... index.html

I also read that much of archaeological interest is being destroyed on the temple mount in Jerusalem. I'm not taking sides with anyone, but the tragedy from an archaeological perspective is overwhelming.

[Minimalist]

While it is true that the Waqf is conducting, what they call "renovation" work on the Temple Mount the notion that they are destroying any great archaeological site is misleading. It had already been destroyed, by Herod the Great in the first century BC.

http://www.archaeology.org/0003/newsbriefs/flap.html

According to Seligman and former Jerusalem District archaeologist Gideon Avni, while the material recovered from the Kidron Valley contained pottery sherds dating from the First Temple to the Crusader (twelfth-thirteenth centuries) periods, it was originally unstratified fill and lacked any serious archaeological value.

Herod, seeking to build a grand temple complex, created a series of retaining walls and filled the interior of the space with dirt to create the platform on which he built his temple. As noted in the attached article, the Waqf has trucked the dirt out and dumped it where Israeli archaeologists have gone through it. They have found nothing of significance and the original positioning of the items was lost when Herod created his landfill.

[Guest]

i would say that this quote is in direct contrast to what minimalist has stated:

Tzachi Zweig, then an archaeology master's student at Bar Ilan University, blew the whistle on the Waqf when he discovered Temple artifacts in junk heaps around Jerusalem, and then presented some of the artifacts he unearthed at an archaeology conference at the university.

Under the supervision of his mentor, Professor Gabriel Barkay, dozens of truckloads of the "garbage" were moved to a special site near Mount Scopus, where until today teams of archaeologists and volunteers continue to find massive amounts of valuable, significant artifacts from the First and Second Temple periods

the whole article can be found on pg 102 of current biblical archaeology

yet this does pose a bit of a problem as kenniwick man has so illustrated. the western indian did not want to lose their claim of being the first to north america thus they have fought for years to bury the skeleton out of reach of the scientist.

i think that archaeology can pose as a threat to some as it seeks to find the truth while undermining accepted history.

[Minimalist]

There seems to be an argument between the IAA and Dr. Barkay about the value of the site.

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/006639.shtml

After the Antiquities Authority voiced disinterest in thoroughly sifting through the rubble discarded by the Wakf, Barkay applied -- and eventually received –a license from the Antiquities Authority to sort through the piles of earth thrown into the garbage dump in search of antiquities, and has since found scores of history-rich artifacts, from the First Temple Period until today amidst the rubble, including a large amount of pottery dating from the Bronze Ages through modern times, a large segment of a marble pillar's shaft, and over 100 ancient coins, among them several from the Hasmonean Dynasty...

Oh, and Barkay's biggest find?

A First-Temple period seal has been discovered amidst piles of rubble from Jerusalem's Temple Mount, an Israeli archaeologist said Tuesday, in what could prove to be an historic find.
The small - less than 1 cm - seal impression, or bulla, discovered Tuesday by Bar-Ilan University archaeologist Dr. Gabriel Barkay amidst piles of rubble from the Temple Mount would mark the first time that an written artifact was found from the Temple Mount dating back to the First Temple period.

The 2,600 year old artifact,...........

2,600 years ago puts the object squarely in the middle of the pre-Babylonian exile period which does not help your fantasy of a great and powerful Davidic Empire.

[MichelleH]

Parties to Tackle China’s Distortion of History

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/ ... 311990.htm

[Guest]

China has recently published four books and several articles, claiming that the Koguryo (37 B.C.-668 A.D.) and Palhae (698-926) kingdoms, which occupied today's northern part of the Korean Peninsula and the northeastern region of China, were part of ancient China.

ah yes, this is actually not new news in this part of the world as such distortions happen all the time. if not the chinese then the japanese (as evidence by their re-writing of history concerning wwII and dok-do )

korea actually is a lot larger than is depicted on the map but for several centuries, the chinese have ruled that part of the country due to invasion or war or whatever. (i would have to look it up again) korea often turned to china for help, when being invaded and was often paying tribute to that country or in turn was a vassel state, due to the might of the chinese military, when not independent.

the chinese are an interesting people, well the whole orient is, as they hold to the philosophy of the group and not the individual (same as korea). they will let hong kong and taiwan exist in their present situations as long as they do not try to separate from the chinese group (try to become independent.) once they try for independence, such as taiwan, then the chinese gets upset and takes it very personally, flexing their muscles and threatening action if taiwan pursues it present course.

the american (or western) idea of individualism does not help matters in this part of the world and at best only makes matters worse. what is important in the western mind is an after thought here in the east.

[DougWeller]

yet this does pose a bit of a problem as kenniwick man has so illustrated. the western indian did not want to lose their claim of being the first to north america thus they have fought for years to bury the skeleton out of reach of the scientist.

i think that archaeology can pose as a threat to some as it seeks to find the truth while undermining accepted history.

Why do you dismiss their religious arguments so lightly?
Not that they seem to have anything to worry about from Kennewick man anyway.

[Minimalist]

Actually, I seem to recall reading somewhere that their "religious" argument is that they "have always been here," not that they came here first from somewhere else.

[DougWeller]

Actually, I seem to recall reading somewhere that their "religious" argument is that they "have always been here," not that they came here first from somewhere else.

Certainly some of them believe that. And some also have their own version of creationism http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wic.html
"American Indian Creationism

The term "American Indian" refers to hundreds of groups with at least as many stories of creation. Deloria has put together a version of creationism which takes from many Native American cultures. It says that originally there was no essential difference between people and animals, that giant people and megafauna once coexisted, and that people and animals shrunk in stature after the golden age came to an end with the earth being ravaged by fire from volcanism.

American Indian Creationism has also come into American politics over the Kennewick Man. Kennewick Man is a 9000-year-old Caucasian fossil man found in Washington state. The fossil is of great interest to anthropologists because of its great age and its anatomical differences from indigenous North Americans. According to the creation beliefs of the Umatilla Indians, though, their ancestors have always been there, so Kennewick Man must be an Indian ancestor. Thus, under the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, the fate of his remains should be for the Umatilla to determine (Morell 1998). Members of the Asatru religion have also filed suit to stop the repatriation on the grounds that Kennewick Man's possible European ancestry is important to their own religious views (Anon., 1999). A court decision in favor of the Umatilla could be the only Federal legal decision in decades to support one particular view of creationism over another.

* Deloria, Vine Jr., Red Earth, White Lies: Native Americans and the Myth of Scientific Fact (Scribner, New York, 1995)
"

[Guest]

Why do you dismiss their religious arguments so lightly?

how am i dismissing their religious claims? i am just mentioning their fear. why would you as an evolutionists be supporting a religious claim anyways?