Evidence of First Sails????

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:53 pm

I have read of many canoes over 10,000 years old, but when did people start using sails?

Burning a dug out canoe is simple. Fashioning a paddle is simple. Heck, even some of my kayaking friends can do it!

Sails require some technology, and probably a fairly complex social structure as it would take many people working together to make sails.

Actually sailing also requires a lot more compllex coordination than just paddling.

Now keep in mind that even a single paddler can cover great distances. One guy kayaked solo from California to Hawaii, and several people have rowed across the Atlantic, but sailing definitely changed the whole game

stan · Post by **stan** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:17 pm

That's a great question.

You may have read my recent "review" of th KonTiki film.
Apparently the sail on board was not adjustible. My impression was
that Heyerdahl modeled it on something he had found...don't remember what. He couldn't control the path of the raft, and had to strictly follow the trade winds.

So it seems that an adustible sail would be great invention, too.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:21 pm

Good point, Stan.

stan · Post by **stan** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:33 pm

The first sail unfurled on the Nile at least as early as 3100 B.C. From the drawing that survives from that date, the sail appears to be no more than a square patch of material fastened to a stick near the front of the boat. The artistic rendition may have been oversimplified, but it's plausible to imagine the first sail as indeed being rather primitive. The importance of this contraption was immediately recognized, however, and modifications continued throughout the Egyptian dynasties. By 2400 B.C the sail had become oblong and rose on a tall mast, allowing it to catch the breezes that flow between the many cliffs along the Nile. Everywhere else in the Mediterranean the sail was low and square, and eventually due to ease of management the Egyptian design conformed. Rigging, the means of support and control, consisted of several lines that were either fixed in place to strengthen the mast from which the sail was hung, or movable so that the sail could be raised, lowered or otherwise positioned.

http://www.fi.edu/wright/again/wings.av ... ng-01.html

A quick google search found this, and a couple other sites that referenced the same material. Another site credited the Chinese with the ability to truly navigate with some sort of two-sail arrangement,but the date was not given.

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:43 pm

Hmmm! About 5,100 years ago. A pretty recent development in the scheme of things...

stan · Post by **stan** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:47 pm

http://hempmuseum.org/SUBROOMS/HEMP%20S ... 0SHIPS.htm

These pictures are alleged to be Egyptian, ca. 3100 BC.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:51 pm

I think I read somewhere that the Egyptians usually went up and down the Nile. Early Egypt anyway. When they went south (upriver) they had a good breeze with them. Of course, going north (downriver) they didn't need a sail at all.

Can't swear to it though. But this might account for the fixed sail.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:53 pm

stan wrote:

http://hempmuseum.org/SUBROOMS/HEMP%20S ... 0SHIPS.htm

These pictures are alleged to be Egyptian, ca. 3100 BC.

Those are really fine!!

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:09 pm

Hancock seems to think that the Ancient Egyptians had boat building skills far beyond the needs for sailing on the Nile.

http://www.kingtutshop.com/freeinfo/egyptian-boats.htm

In 1991 in the desert near the temple of Khentyamentiu, archaeologists uncovered the remains of 14 ships dating back to the early first dynasty (2950-2775 BC), possibly associated with King Aha, the first ruler of that dynasty. These 75 foot long ships are buried side by side and have wooden hulls, rough stone boulders which were used as anchors, and "sewn" wooden planks. Also found within their desert graves were remains of the woven straps that joined the planks, as well as reed bundles that were used to seal seams between planks. The Abydos ships have the honor of being the world’s oldest planked boats.

The ancient Egyptians were creating ships with technological skills far beyond their time, well before the invention of the wheel. Egyptologists suspect that simple light rafts made from bundled papyrus reeds may have been made by hunter-gatherers who moved to the Nile Valley during the Upper Paleolithic period; of course, no specimens remain today. However, there is evidence of the presence of boats in the Naqada II culture, which immediately preceded the dynastic period. Archaeologists have unearthed red painted pottery with designs that include boat motifs as important symbols, and some interpretations stress the boats were used in a religious or ritual capacity. Further evidence for the early use of boats lies in tomb reliefs (ship building scenes were among the most popular motifs in tombs), paintings, and model boats dating from predynastic times through the New Kingdom.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:06 pm

Yeah, that does make more sense.

stan · Post by **stan** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:16 pm

A couple of points. The pottery is in the "predynastic" style.

Also, at some point the Egyptians sailed down the coast of Africa
to what is now Somalia (I believe) "The Land of Punt."

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:19 pm

Hancock seems to think that the Ancient Egyptians had boat building skills far beyond the needs for sailing on the Nile.

Hancock thinks a lot of crap

Also, at some point the Egyptians sailed down the coast of Africa
to what is now Somalia

they sailed to punt along the Nile and nobody knows exactly where it was

they actually had to hire the phoenecians to sail them the only time they ever went along the african coast because they couldn't do it on their own

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:28 pm

http://uptoknowgood.wordpress.com/2006/ ... -60000-bc/

I am not vouching for this article but as far as I can tell he's giving good information on types of ancient sails.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:40 pm

its complete crap
guy needs to look at the mtdna evidence before speculating that ancient peoples sailed anywhere 100,000 years ago in the distant past
because according to the actual real data there wasn't anyone there then anyway
his last paragraph reveals his motives quite clearly

What this observation points out is that most modern theories about paleontology, how mankind spread around the earth, anthropology, and human prehistory, along with theories about the causes and conditions of the Ice Ages are easily proven to be wrong….

you know that the homepage has a quote from Hitler as well right ?
http://uptoknowgood.wordpress.com/

in addition the guy that wrote this piece is the editor of a conspiracy newspaper
http://www.brojon.org/frontpage.html

woooooh

Barracuda · Post by **Barracuda** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:52 pm

He inferred that sails were used 100,000 years ago, which I find hard to believe.

But I would agree that people can survive a long time at sea. Recently three Mexican fishermen were rescued after three months adrift at sea. They survived by fishing and catching and storing rain water, and I am sure that is not a record.

The idea of using the sails as a condenser is very interesting. I bet it could be done.

And if people can survive that long at sea, they don't need to have sails. If you can hold out long enough, you will eventually reach land just by drifting.