pilfering

[Rokcet Scientist]

[quote="Minimalist"]Gentlemen....look at the description given:

[quote]They found it in field outside a town on the coast near Rome, in a field littered with old bricks, stones, and so on. [/quote]

This is hardly someone picking up statues in the Valley of the Kings or the Roman Forum.[/quote]

C'mon, Bob: 50 years ago Angkor Vat had thousands of statues and reliefs. Today 95% have been stolen, decapitated or defaced to grace foreigners' homes (getting there by hook and by crook). I'm afraid this goes for the vast majority of archaeological sites around the globe. Next to 'project development', this seemingly innocuous pilfering is the single biggest threat to all archaeological sites.
Making a mockery of it doesn't help.

[Minimalist]

This is an empty field, R/S, filled with debris...not a site on the World Heritage list.

[Guest]

This is an empty field, R/S, filled with debris...not a site on the World Heritage list.

It's a site which obviously hasn't been seriously investigated, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything to learn from it.

Leona, a plowed field is a site which is being destroyed and surface collecting is the only way to investigate that type of site. Everything there has already been disturbed and is out of context. Little can be learned from it, other than that it was an occupation or burial site and what type of artifacts were associated with it. Generally the artifacts found aren't carried off to another country in such a case either. In the US it's totally up to the landowner as to what happens to the artifacts and most could care less what happens to them. I surface collect plowed fields myself, but record what I find and where.
Not logged it but it's me, Frank.

[Rokcet Scientist]

[quote="Minimalist"]This is an empty field, R/S, filled with debris...not a site on the World Heritage list.[/quote]

How do you think sites GET on that or any other list in the first place, Bob...?

[Minimalist]

Well, usually there is something there to begin with, a statue or temple or something. Not merely

in a field littered with old bricks, stones, and so on.

Every place that people elect to dump their garbage does not become an archaeologicial site.

[Guest]

Note the location, the time and nearby landmarks precisely (who doesn't have GPS these days?)

Most of us! The type of GPS receivers commonly available in hiking shops aren't really accurate enough for archaeology, unless you use two identical receivers at the same time, and they were both calibrated with the exact same details beforehand. The type of GPS used by archaeologists is too expensive to justify it from a hobby viewpoint.
English Heritage produced a great booklet on the subject a while ago.
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/uplo ... are_we.pdf
And the British Ordnance Survey run the National GPS Network-
www.gps.gov.uk/index.asp
-to provide help in calibration.

[Tech]

I have to agree that it was a mistake because ancient rubbish sites are a great source of information (if it was one) but, if they had even showed a local historian the mould and the field it was found in , then if it was of any significance at all , it could at least be noted and investigated correctly at a later date .

[Rokcet Scientist]

[quote="Realist"][quote="Rokcet Scientist"]Note the location, the time and nearby landmarks precisely (who doesn't have GPS these days?)[/quote]

Most of us! [/quote]

'Most of us'? Most of you then, probably, because millions of cars have them as a standard built-in accessory. Millions of handhelds are sold over the counter and online. Todays military grade GPS receiver will be 99 bucks at Sainsbury's before next christmas! So don't tell me this technology is 'inaccessible to the masses'. It has never been more so than today! And EVERY hobby is expensive! Whether it's travelling, ocean sailing, or stamp collecting!

[quote="Realist"]The type of GPS receivers commonly available in hiking shops aren't really accurate enough for archaeology, unless you use two identical receivers at the same time, and they were both calibrated with the exact same details beforehand. The type of GPS used by archaeologists is too expensive to justify it from a hobby viewpoint.[/quote]

Up until 5 years ago there was no non-military GPS at all. So count your blessings. Besides, the calibration prob has already been solved, you say, so it isn't really a problem, is it?

[Guest]

'Most of us'? Most of you then, probably, because millions of cars have them as a standard built-in accessory.

Only new cars in Britain-hardly "millions", since the majority of people can't afford brand new cars; and rarely travel far enough to need satellite navigation!

Millions of handhelds are sold over the counter and online.

Thousands maybe, bought by people who stick them on car dashboards, because they haven't the brains to read a roadmap, and hope it will cover up their lousy driving. Hardly archaeology, is it?

Todays military grade GPS receiver will be 99 bucks at Sainsbury's before next christmas! So don't tell me this technology is 'inaccessible to the masses'. It has never been more so than today!

I never said it wasn't. Big difference between it being available, and people actually knowing how to use it constructively though, isn't there?

And EVERY hobby is expensive! Whether it's travelling, ocean sailing, or stamp collecting!

Or in my case, amateur radio.

Up until 5 years ago there was no non-military GPS at all. So count your blessings. Besides, the calibration prob has already been solved, you say, so it isn't really a problem, is it?

If you had actually read the OS link, you would have seen the bit at the bottom where it tells you the calibration only really works with survey grade GPS software and equipment. The average hand-held GPS receiver is only accurate to around 10 metres, or 34 feet; a fat lot of good for pinpointing the position of an arrowhead in a 100 acre field!
I'm a hillwalker, and I still carry a good old-fashioned compass rather than rely totally on a GPS unit. Batteries die when you least expect it....

[Guest]

OK, gang! Before we come to blows and start accusing each other of
criminal activity:
My impression was that the site where the mold was found was the remains of an old town that was never excavated, not a modern trash dump.
I think in the countryside around Rome, and down toward Ostia, there must be A LOT of heaps and debris that go back to "Roman" times. I think that is why my acquaintances thought it was ok to pick it up...it wouldn't be missed.
In posting this question originally, I had hoped to get a wider range of opinion, not just the polarization of 1 vs. 10.
There are several ways to look at it, of course.
1. What is its monetary value? No one has mentioned this. BTW, if you do a Google image search of spear molds you find several Chinese examples and one or two others. ..just a few. I don
t know if this means they are unusual, or so common that no one is interested. Maybe you pros could shed some light on this.
2. Who did it belong to in the first place? My assumption is that it either belonged to the government or to the owner of the property where it was found. ( My personal opinion is that even though it wasn't nailed down, protectec, or labeled as private property, the tourists didn't have the right to take it. In fact, they were probably trespassing, technically.)
3. What is its archaeological value? I don't know how many of these items have been found. Perhaps it is unique...(except for the other half of the mold) , and could have helped identify who lived at that site, and when. I am sure that all of you have known of archaeological puzzles that have been solved (and careers that have been made) by the discovery and interpretation of one or two artifacts found in a certain place (I know, this was on top of the ground.)
Once an artifact is in a museum and has been interpreted and cataloged, its value is enhanced. But this item never will have that chance of becoming such a valuable asset to a collection.
I confess, I have a collection of points that I have found on the surface in various
farm fields around here.....

My justification has been that they are already removed from their context, and that they are so numerous...they are everywhere in North Carolina, and I am ready to tell any archeologist who is interested where they came from.
But to take something home from Italy as a trophy seems rather tacky to me. OK...That's it from me.
Thanks for the debate.

[stan]

Sorry, that was I, Stan....
I thought i was logged in...
Frank is having a bad influence on me.

[Frank Harrist]

Sorry, that was I, Stan....
I thought i was logged in...
Frank is having a bad influence on me.

Man, I go home and go to sleep and the next day I come back to see ya'll bein' real hard on southern boys. I'm one of them good ole boys, but I ain't a redneck or a nerd or even a cowboy. I reckon you'd just hafta call me an old east Texas hick. Dang it we ain't all stupid. Some of us are cool!

[Minimalist]

While we've been debating picking up an odd rock, the State of Utah is thinking about screwing up the past in a major way.


http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=156838

Rep. Brad Johnson, (R) Aurora: "The costs have been too high and there is certain archaeological resources we do need to preserve, but not all of them. And there's some that are not as important as others."

But the bill's sponsor says this bill is all about balance and restoring a balance between preservation and development.

Leave it to the Republicans to favor "development" over "knowledge!"

[Minimalist]

This answers some of the questions raised in this discussion.


http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/italytrial/

Legal protection for antiquities has existed in some parts of Italy for centuries. "Decrees of the Bourbon Kingdom of Naples promulgated as early as 1822," writes archaeologist Ricardo J. Elia of Boston University, "regulated the ownership, excavation, and exportation of antiquities in much of South Italy." The first antiquities law covering the modern country of Italy went into effect in 1902. This law was reaffirmed and updated in 1939 with the passage of "General Regulations for the Protection of Things of Historical and Artistic Interest," which asserts state ownership of all artifacts discovered after 1902 and forbids the exportation of such items without a permit. Based on this law, which claims national ownership of antiquities in addition to regulating their excavation and exportation, artifacts dug up and taken from Italy without permission can be said to be stolen, and not just "looted" or "smuggled."

[stan]

Thanks, Minimalist, for that excellent bit of information.
It feels right to me.

I have another feeling...that in our lifetimes perhaps, the practice of returning artefacts to their countries of origin will
increase.