Firearms Archaeology

[Beagle]

O.K. would someone like to quantify the possible value of a weapon that could be 'proven' to have been a battlefield pickup from the Texas Revolution that was taken to Mexico? From which battle is unknown. I guess take your pick. Certainly, the feeling of holding it in ones hands would take precidence over any monetary amount. I've gotta wonder however at what such a rifle could conceivably be worth. Well, of course it'll never be worth that because the history is incomplete as to it's exact origins in Texas or "that part of Texas that used to be Mexico" (from the merchant upon whose property it ws found).

Well, firstly, how can you "prove" that the weapon is what you say?

And then, let's see, there really weren't too many battles. We have:
Gonzales
The 1st Battle of the Alamo

Then - Santa Anna brings his army north, and we have
Goliad
The Alamo
San Jacinto.

Those are what I remember, and I am assuming it can be proven that it was not a Mexican weapon. Can you tell us the exact name of the rifle, and where it was found and where it is now?

Very interesting W/D. With enough facts, someone here may know a ballpark figure.

[Minimalist]

Here's a start, Dog.

http://armchairgunshow.com/Historic_Guns.htm


Then, there's this.

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/archive/i ... 71150.html

LONDON (AP) -- A rare Colt revolver (http://www.antiquegunroom.com/GregMarti ... 18_018.JPG) made more than 150 years ago in the United States was sold at auction Wednesday for $343,550, Bonhams auctioneers said.

The Deluxe Cased Colt Paterson No. 2 Belt Model Percussion Revolver -- made in New Jersey in 1840 -- was sold in its original mahogany case with spare parts including a bullet mold and cleaning rod.

An unidentified bidder bought the gun, which had been found among the belongings of a woman who died in a small row house in southwest Scotland, Bonhams said. The firearm is worth more than the property itself.

So....you can only imagine the value of a weapon with a provable history of having seen service at The Alamo.

[Beagle]

That's a neat site Min. I don't know how well he's gonna do without provenence though.

[Minimalist]

That's the key, of course. While digging up that second bit, I found a story about a dealer who who convicted of fraud for helping history along.

[Beagle]

helping history along.

Surely, that's never been done!

[Minimalist]

This is the second story....look at the value of the weapon in question. Roughly 10 years after the Texas War of Independence, too.

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/archive/i ... 05744.html

Investigators said Ellis acquired the Walker 1009 for $640,000, but arranged to sell it to Murphy for $1 million after showing him fabricated correspondence in which a fictional buyer claimed to be willing to pay at least that much for the gun. Ellis had operated a business that appraised and sold collectible firearms in Moline, Ill., prosecutors said.

Zomber and Ellis then implemented a similar scheme to drive up the price of the Walker 1010, which Zomber had purchased for $500,000, but resold to Murphy for $1.2 million, prosecutors said.

A Walker revolver.

[whitedog]

O.K, go to www.thealamofilm.com/forum/ Then, go to "Battle Tactics & Weapons". Click on it and then look for "Alamo garrison weaponry, any ever found?". or "Leman Flintlock longrifle with Texas Revolution Provenance". or "Kentucky Rifle". Look to the right and find my name...
"Fred" and click on it, then in the profile, click on "view all postings by this member" You'll get all of my postings and if you go to the bottom one on the list, you'll see the first posting where I start to tell about the rifle's history as I recieved it. The information is detailed and will save me from going all through it again. I'm a bad typer with arthritis guy's. However, I'll be only too happy to just go ahead and tell it agin if you don't want to read the posts about the rilfe! No provenance is any better than the reputaion of the man who holds it. The info is accurate and pretty much complete as I was told. The rifle is quite interesting to say the least. Where was the battle from where it was picked up in Texas? Qien Saba?

[Minimalist]

Hollywood mythology aside, the use of rifles in actual battle was not commonplace at that time. It is certainly true that the majority of the Texans were "irregulars" to put it mildly and could well have shown up armed with whatever they had at hand. It is also true that one could have fired the first ball "patched" and subsequent rounds "unpatched" to keep up a militarily useful rate of fire. To make up for the lack of a bayonet (a decided disadvantage!) knives and hatchets could have been substituted for close combat. So, on balance, there is no reason why any particular weapon could not have been used in one battle or another. To be sure, the flintlock system was on the way out in 1836 but there would have been thousands of them on the frontier. I dug this out of the Dixie Gun Works catalog. It is classified as a Tennessee rifle which tends to have a lot less ornamentation than the Pennsylvania variety.



Does your's look anything like it?

[whitedog]

No, aside from being a flintlock there's a great deal of difference. The "Leman" longrifle I am going to buy back isn't of the "tennessee" design like the one pictured with sharp angles. The rifle has the "Lancaster" profile in the buttstock and the lines are very graceful, being a true Pennsylvania Longrifle. It's long 47" barrel is much longer of course and the furniture is brass. I'm going to have to just buy it back and post a picture of it here for you to see. Then you'll see how different it is. It's really quite pleasing to look at. Have you ever read the book, "The Kentucky Pennsylvania Longrifle"? In it, there is a picture of a Leman rifle that has a patchbox unique and identical to this one.

[whitedog]

Could you please tell me how I can post some pictures on this forum? I've got some in "my pistures" that are of interest.

[Beagle]

Could you please tell me how I can post some pictures on this forum? I've got some in "my pistures" that are of interest.

Most folks use Photobucket.com . It's free to use. Instructions are provided there for message boards.

[Minimalist]

More like this, then?





I haven't read the book but I own a replica Pennsylvania flintlock rifle. Fun to shoot.

[whitedog]

More like this

[whitedog]

Here's a neat image

[Beagle]

Yep, neat image. Those pics will enlarge when you click on them.