Grave goods and why?

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:50 am

Well, Digit, if you want to look at the link between paranormal and early man's development of religion, that is taking this thread in a way I never expected. Marduk's comment then doesn't seem so satirical.

Is that your intention?

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:04 am

Yes Monk, that was my intention. Modern religion is an organised power base, right or wrong is irrelevant. But understanding how such strong emotions started may help us understand early man's development I feel.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:36 am

I'm not CLAIMING anything, Marduk, I'm asking.
Let's start from the other end.
I ASSUME that poltergeist activity is not a new phenomenom, if so then early man would have experienced it. Again, if so, I am suggesting that he would have looked for an explanation, this is part of our nature, to seek answers.
That being so you are looking at the birth of religious practices.
Tenuous? Yes. But like all good theories it offers a plausible scenario.
Anybody got a better one?

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:46 am

lol
how about the fact that thought about seven tenths of mankinds existence on this planet the one reliable thing that made everyone feel good everyday was the sun which comes up without fail makes food grow and scares away all the nocturnal predators that have a nasty habit of using darkness as cover to steal your children

put yourself in the middle of an ice age Roy
one that lasts for 70,000 years
now answer the following question
1) what do you want to worship

now fast forward to the period that mankind emerges from its caves and have a look at all the head deities of the ancient world

1) Quetzlcoatl (South america) - Sun God
2) Atum (Egypt) - Sun God
3) An (Sumeria) - Sun God
4) Wakan Tanka (North America) - Sun God
5) Vishnu (India) - Sun god

spirits that move rocks around in the cave are one thing
Gods are frequently something else

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:15 am

Marduk wrote.

spirits that move rocks around in the cave are one thing
Gods are frequently something else

Or the same thing?
If I take your point about the sun Marduk, which seems perfectly reasonable, then an invisible force starts to move things around/make strange noises, I suggest that our cave man would as terrified as his modern relatives.
Would this then represent the opposite of a 'good sun'?

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:18 am

are you claiming that God is moving things around in your house Roy ?

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:24 am

Nope! Neither am I'm claiming that the sun is.
I am claiming that at first it is a guaranteed cure for constipation!

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:41 am

Would this then represent the opposite of a 'good sun'?

nope
the opposite of the Sun is the Moon
let me know if I can make this any more obvious eh

the moon reflects the suns glory and the next line of Gods in the ancient world are all lunar deities
and all female

you are assuming of course that in ancient times there were such things as poltergeists
the earliest case of poltergeist activity was from ancient egypt
in that example it was believed to be the work of a magician
who was shortly after put to death

so you are theorizing without any evidence really
thats not a theory
thats just speculation
and in this area you just dont need it
the facts speak for themselves
in the ancient world the paranormal was an everyday occurence
people didn't know a lot about a great deal of stuff
so the answer usually was
the god did it
so the activity you are talking about is a symptom of Godhood
and not a cause of it

and really Roy
Religion as you are stating it is the foundation of civilisation, it is the glue that holds the people together with the God king at the top and the peasant at the bottom. Before religion there was no civilisation and there has never been a civilisation that wasn't founded on a religion
so to any reasonable effect there were no poltergeists before civilisation

so those caves were nice and quiet with no paranormal activity at all
shamanism doesn't count either
everybody knows that belief system is based on mind bending drugs used to create a paranormal experience
just ask Hancock
hes recently started to use that approach to writing
can't say its improved his work any

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:48 am

OK, maybe I'm seeing a point here. Yeah, if you live in an ice age (or northeast Ohio) the sun could become an object of veneration. This seems reasonable. On the other hand, when things go bump in the night, who ya gonna call, and there ain't no ghost-busters?

Fears in the night, or poltergeists are going to make a believer out of the solar agnostic. Some maybe religion emerged as a hedge against fear?

The shaman then emerges as a sort of fearless one who can stand between the night terrors and the human.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:01 am

Agreed that I am theorising without evidence Marduk as did Einstein, the supoorting evidence came later. Unfortunately I can see no way that any evidence will ever be found to tell us how early man thought or dreamt.
Are you now suggesting that the book should therefore be closed?

(so to any reasonable effect there were no poltergeists before civilisation

so those caves were nice and quiet with no paranormal activity at all )

To be fair, where's the evidence for that comment?
Let my paint a picture. The warm friendly sun has just gone out, your cave man has now only the flickering flame of his fire, and any about him for warmth and light.
Suddenly his spear rises into the air and flies across the cave!
Please Steve, convince me that the poor bastard wouldn't be petrified!
As regards you suggestion that all civilisations have a religious base, I pass, to answer that I would need a satisfactory definition of civilisation I'm afraid.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:22 am

Agreed that I am theorising without evidence Marduk as did Einstein

errr
Einstein had an extensive education in physics Roy
he based his theoretical work on what he had learned
did you think he bumped his head in the shower and came up with an idea

Suddenly his spear rises into the air and flies across the cave!
Please Steve, convince me that the poor bastard wouldn't be petrified!

i see
so basically you are making it up as you go along
this isn't science Roy
its fiction
and also it has fuck all to do with archaeology
to start with you'd have to prove that poltergiests exist
good luck with that
when you have get back to me and you'd have something to discuss

As regards you suggestion that all civilisations have a religious base, I pass, to answer that I would need a satisfactory definition of civilisation I'm afraid.

you wanta definition of civilisation
errr
ok
try
Egypt
Sumeria
Rome
Greece
etc
like I said earlier if you want I can make this really obvious
want me to switch to words of one syllable

you have a dictionary
I heard they were quite good for looking up definitions as well
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilisation

1. the social process whereby societies achieve civilization [syn: civilization]
2. a particular society at a particular time and place; "early Mayan civilization" [syn: culture]
3. a society in an advanced state of social development (e.g., with complex legal and political and religious organizations); "the people slowly progressed from barbarism to civilization" [syn: civilization]
4. the quality of excellence in thought and manners and taste; "a man of intellectual refinement"; "he is remembered for his generosity and civilization" [syn: refinement]

I'd go with 1 through 3
Imo definition 4 is just a myth

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:40 am

He may have bumped his head he didn't say, but Bohr claimed the idea of the shape of the atom came to him in a dream, is that good enough?
Correct me if I wrong, what you are saying is that because we may never prove the mental processes of early man we should not speculate, am I correct?

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:03 pm

lol no
I am saying that the foundation of religion is well known and even more well documented
and its nothing to do with ghosts moving things around in your house

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:32 pm

You have misunderstood a key part of what I have said Marduk, if you check back earlier I used the word 'religous' as opposed to religion.
I wish you to go back to before recorded history etc, to use your own words, to the cave man, to the time when man began to think about life, about death, about the world around him. This predates 'religion' in the excepted sense by a long long time.
You said earlier that all civilisations were founded/based on religion, I wisely, I think, left that definition to others, but using other people's definitions, civilsations are based on agriculture religion is not needed at all to form a civilised society.
A civilisation may well survive a change of religion, a collapse
in faith, but no civilisation has survived a collapse in its agricultural base.

(Correct me if I wrong, what you are saying is that because we may never prove the mental processes of early man we should not speculate, am I correct?)

(so to any reasonable effect there were no poltergeists before civilisation

so those caves were nice and quiet with no paranormal activity at all )

I reposted the above because you didn't answer them.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:43 pm

religion - a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

religious - of, pertaining to, or concerned with religion

I reposted the above because you didn't answer them.

its not a question
its the plot to a story

civilsations are based on agriculture religion is not needed at all to form a civilised society.

thats complete crap

I suggest you do some reading and look up the term "civilisation" and then compare it to the term "culture"
and then maybe see which comes first
all civilisations are based on religion whether you like it or not
if you want to disprove this then simply name a civilisation that isn't based around religion