Upheavals in the Third Millenium BCE

[Digit]

Writing isn't the problem KB it's the material it was done with, apart from stone and clay tablets anything else is unlikely to have survived the passage of time.
Take the stone tools that have been developed in the past, many would have been used to manufacture wooden objects, and what do we have? The tools, not the products, it's same with their art, anything other than that that which was carved or moulded is long gone.

[Beagle]

The same would be true of musical instruments, such as a wooden flute, a lyre, and drums. It's hard to imagine how long mankind has had drums.

[Digit]

Exactly Beag. By the time people were drawing on cave walls, writing in stone and on clay tablets, they had probably been doing it for long enough to understand that something more durable was needed than what they had been using. The idea that they started with what has come down to us is frankly ridiculous.

[Forum Monk]

Genesis 4
19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of [g] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

The birth of tent makers and livestock breeders, the fashioners of harps and flutes and the birth of music, the first metal smiths. According to Genesis, these technologies and skills, developed before the great flood. Seems incredible to me, some form of written communication did not exist as well. In any case, seems none of these implements, not even metallic ones, can survive thousands of years. And if you think about it, what do we do today that is durable enough to survive thousands of years?

[Minimalist]

The same would be true of musical instruments, such as a wooden flute, a lyre, and drums. It's hard to imagine how long mankind has had drums.

My kid had a set for what seemed like FOREVER.

[Charlie Hatchett]

The birth of tent makers and livestock breeders, the fashioners of harps and flutes and the birth of music, the first metal smiths. According to Genesis, these technologies and skills, developed before the great flood. Seems incredible to me, some form of written communication did not exist as well. In any case, seems none of these implements, not even metallic ones, can survive thousands of years. And if you think about it, what do we do today that is durable enough to survive thousands of years?

Remaining sediment removed. Note the blowhole.



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2037.jpg

Furnace completely cleared out. Note the remaining iron.



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2042.jpg

Close-up of blowhole. Note the charring at the top of the blowhole rim, in this image.



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2045.jpg

Remaining iron.




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2025.jpg

Casting mold when it was first cleared of fill.



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2028.jpg

Casting mold completely cleared of fill.



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2029.jpg

Close-up of mold.



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2026.jpg

Mold in relation to furnace.


Magnetic artifacts recovered from the lower strata of Lima-Igl (the iron stained and charred cobble stratum):




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2012.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 1- Dorsal View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2011.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 1- Lateral View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20139.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 1- Ventral View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2097.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 2- Dorsal View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20140.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 2- Ventral View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20141.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 2- Lateral View- Lima-Igl




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20136.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 3- Dorsal View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20137.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 3- Ventral View- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... %20138.jpg

PreClovis Iron Artifact 3- Lateral View- Lima-Igl

These artifacts ping iron, zinc and silver, on a hobbyist metal detector.




http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone129.jpg

Hypothesized Flute- Dorsal Side ca. 6"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone130.jpg

Hypothesized Flute-Ventral Side- ca. 6"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone131.jpg

Hypothesized Flute- Distal End- ca. 6"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone132.jpg

Hypothesized Flute- Proximal/ Dorsal View- ca. 6"- Lima-Igl



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone133.jpg

Hypothesized Flute- Proximal/ Ventral View- ca. 6"- Lima-Igl



Location where Hypothesized Flute was Discovered

[Charlie Hatchett]

Genesis 4
19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of [g] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

The birth of tent makers and livestock breeders, the fashioners of harps and flutes and the birth of music, the first metal smiths. According to Genesis, these technologies and skills, developed before the great flood. Seems incredible to me, some form of written communication did not exist as well. In any case, seems none of these implements, not even metallic ones, can survive thousands of years. And if you think about it, what do we do today that is durable enough to survive thousands of years?

Note Lamech was also Noah's father:

Lamech (Hebrew: לֶמֶך-Lemech) is the name of two men in the genealogies of Adam in the book of Genesis. One is the sixth generation descendant of Cain (Genesis 4:18 ); his father was named Methusael and he was responsible for the "Song of the Sword." He is also noted as the first polygamist mentioned in the Bible, taking two wives, Ada and Tselah. The other Lamech is an eighth generation descendant of Seth (Genesis 5:25). He is the son of Methuselah and was the father of Noah (Genesis 5:29).

[Rokcet Scientist]

Neat, Charlie.

What about dating?

[Charlie Hatchett]

Neat, Charlie.

What about dating?

That's the thing, Rok: The dating. This stuff was manufactured way prior to 3,000 radiocarbon years ago.

The Mormons speak of metal smelting, elephants and horse all concurrently existing in North America:

The Book of Mormon states that metals, including iron and steel (an iron alloy), were produced and used among the Book of Mormon peoples. It has been pointed out that there is little evidence of steel production in central and southern America, and would have been difficult to produce steel in those locales.[citation needed] Iron and steel are mentioned together in the Bible.[127]

LDS scholars note that the word steel could have been an approximate translation, actually referring to another type of metal entirely for which there would have been no word in 19th century America (see Tumbaga and similar copper and iron based metals). Steel is only mentioned in three verses (2 Nephi 5:15, Jarom 1:8, Ether 7:9) in the Book of Mormon, all before 360 B.C. (by the book's chronology) and could have referred to an Old-World skill that was forgotten.

Possible evidence exists that iron and steel metallurgy took place among North American indigenous groups. Two internet sources, neither affiliated with the LDS, present a few sites that may provide possible evidence. One unusual site in Central Texas presents a hypothesized furnace carved directly into the bedrock of an ancient creekbed, and includes hypothesized blow holes manufactured also in the limestone creekbed. [128] Several iron bird effigies and an elephant effigy are presented to strengthen the hypothesis. The artifacts and smelting facilities have been found in the same context as Clovis and possible preClovis stone artifacts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeolog ... _of_Mormon

Elephants are mentioned twice in a single verse in the Book of Ether.[109] The time period corresponding to this verse would be approximately 2500 B.C. Elephants, in particular, are mentioned as being "useful unto man." Elephants are never mentioned as having been present during the period of time during which the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations are said to have existed.

Scholars agree that mastadons and mammoths once lived in the New World.[citation needed] The main point of contention is how late these animals were present before becoming extinct.[citation needed] Current archaeological data suggests that elephants were hunted to extinction by early inhabitants of the New World sometime around 8,000 BC.[citation needed]

There are instances of stories preserved orally by Native Americans which some LDS scholars believe may describe elephants. One such story is related by the Naskapi Indian Tribe, located in Canada. The story concerns a monster from the Naskapi tradition called Katcheetohuskw, which is described as being very large, with large ears, teeth and a long nose.[110] Similar versions of "monster" legends related by other tribes refer to a monster called Ursida, which is described as more of a large, stiff-legged bear rather than a mammoth. The story of the "monster bear" is considered by some scholars to be purely mythical. [111]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeolog ... _of_Mormon

Horses are mentioned fourteen times in the Book of Mormon. Three of these references are contained within prophetic statements (such as those of Isaiah) which do not directly describe events related to Book of Mormon people. There are four instances in which horses and chariots are mentioned in the same verse.[101] No specific mention is made of what the horses were used for, or if they were used with the chariots in some manner. It has been speculated by some LDS scholars that horses may have been used for food.[102] The use of horses for food is also implied from the context of 3 Nephi 4:4, which lists horses along with other food animals:"[t]he Nephites...having reserved for themselves provisions, and horses and cattle, and flocks of every kind, that they might subsist for the space of seven years."

Horses evolved in the Americas (see Evolution of the horse), and evidence has been found showing that pre-historic horses were hunted by the Paleo-Indian Clovis culture who appeared in North America approximately 13,500 years ago.[103][104] These horses co-existed among the other Pleistocene megafauna, including the various species of mammoths, which are a genus of the elephant family, and the mastodon which is a more distant relative of the elephant. The pre-historic species of New World horses became extinct at the end of the last Ice Age, along with the mammoths and 70% of the large mammal species in North America (see New World Pleistocene Extinctions). The dates of regional extinctions vary between approximately 10,000[105] and 12,500[106] years ago. Horses were not re-introduced to Americas until they were brought to the Caribbean by Christopher Columbus on his second journey to the New World in 1493[107]. Horses were first brought by the Cortés expedition to the North American continent, to areas of present-day Mexico and New Mexico, in 1519[108].


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeolog ... _of_Mormon

Sounds like the Pleistocene to me.

[Forum Monk]

Possible evidence exists that iron and steel metallurgy took place among North American indigenous groups. Two internet sources, neither affiliated with the LDS, present a few sites that may provide possible evidence. One unusual site in Central Texas presents a hypothesized furnace carved directly into the bedrock of an ancient creekbed, and includes hypothesized blow holes manufactured also in the limestone creekbed. [128] Several iron bird effigies and an elephant effigy are presented to strengthen the hypothesis. The artifacts and smelting facilities have been found in the same context as Clovis and possible preClovis stone artifacts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeolog ... _of_Mormon

Charlie - that citation is you in a Wiki article about the book of mormon. Who put that in?

No expert here but I thought Moroni showed Joseph Smith evidence of a tribe of hebrews from the northern kingdom ca. 721bce who came to the americas. That's definately post clovis.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Possible evidence exists that iron and steel metallurgy took place among North American indigenous groups. Two internet sources, neither affiliated with the LDS, present a few sites that may provide possible evidence. One unusual site in Central Texas presents a hypothesized furnace carved directly into the bedrock of an ancient creekbed, and includes hypothesized blow holes manufactured also in the limestone creekbed. [128] Several iron bird effigies and an elephant effigy are presented to strengthen the hypothesis. The artifacts and smelting facilities have been found in the same context as Clovis and possible preClovis stone artifacts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeolog ... _of_Mormon

Charlie - that citation is you in a Wiki article about the book of mormon. Who put that in?

No expert here but I thought Moroni showed Joseph Smith evidence of a tribe of hebrews from the northern kingdom ca. 721bce who came to the americas. That's definately post clovis.

Some guy up in Wisconsin, I think. He called me one day asking a bunch of questions. He seemed to be pretty familiar with the native american smelting up in Ohio, also.

The original discoverer of the Ohio furnaces claims to have found Clovis and Folsom points in association with the pits.

There is a well documented Old Copper Culture, possibly dating to Pleistocene times, which inhabitated the Great Lakes region.

Yeah, the Mormon account is out of whack, as is the Old Testament, radiocarbon dating wise.

[Rokcet Scientist]

The [...] Wrangel Island Mammoth was a dwarf race of the Tundra Mammoth (Mammuthus primigenius) and died out around 1700 B.C.E.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_elep ... gel_Island

If mammoths lived on Wrangel up until 1700 BCE, elephants on the early Holocene plains and prairies of North America sounds entirely plausible to me.
But have datable skeletal remains of those been found?

[Charlie Hatchett]

But have datable skeletal remains of those been found?

I see your point. There may be remains out that haven't been discovered yet, dating to Holocene times.

[Rokcet Scientist]

So none, eh!
Against the backdrop of hundreds of thousands of remains of smilodons, giant sloths, thunderbirds, and all manner of megafauna, that doesn't sound promising at all...

[Charlie Hatchett]

So none, eh!
Against the backdrop of hundreds of thousands of remains of smilodons, giant sloths, thunderbirds, and all manner of megafauna, that doesn't sound promising at all...

Not that I'm aware of, but I'm no Paleontologist, by far.