Current Biblical Archaeology

Random older topics of discussion

Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters

Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16035
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Post by Minimalist »

Until the next interruption from the bible belters, Finklestein draws on his previous study of settlement patterns in the Judean highlands.
In the case of the Judean Highlands in the period before the rise of the kingdom of Judah, we can indeed recognize a characteristic way of life. Because of the limitations to agriculture, due to the rocky, wooded terrain and the limited rainfall, the number of sedentary communities was relatively small. Only a handful of permanent sites, including Jerusalem, have been recorded in archaeological surveys of the entire territory throughout the Late Bronze and Early Iron Age (c. 1550 - 900 BCE). Most were tiny villages. There was no real urban center, and not even a single fortified town. In fact, the small sedentary population of the southern highlands can be estimated, on the basis of settlement size, at no more than a few thousand. This contrasts sharply with the lowland territories to the west; there, the major Canaanite and later Philistine city-states each contained dozens of towns and villages, with a large settled population in the main centers and outlying agricultural lands.
In other words, Judah at the time that David was running around in the hills as a kind of Jewish Robin Hood, was a backward region of nomadic herders who had no influence or impact on geopolitical affairs in the region.

However, Finklestein does see some some small measure of hope for actual historical fact in that by the time that there was sufficient literacy in Judah to have written the tale down, the sites described as the background for David's escapdes with his Merry Men, would have no longer been the unsettled and wild places mentioned in the tale. Therefore he gives credence to the description of David's early career as a bandit in the hills which should be some small measure of satisfaction for the bible belters....even if it is not the glorious empire that they would have hoped for.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Guest

Post by Guest »

what woulod make finklestein right over all the others? it is obvious that he has an axe to grind if he comes to that conclusion.
Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

archaeologist wrote:[...] it is obvious that he has an axe to grind if he comes to that conclusion.
Textbook example of projection.
Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16035
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Post by Minimalist »

All "which" others? No reputable archaeologist has put any stock in Jewish creation mythology since Finklestein did the work showing that the Jews were indigenous to Canaan beginning with the collapse of Late Bronze Age civilization around 1250 BC.

The only ones who are still trying to pump air into that particular flat tire are fundamentalists-types who can't bear the thought that their precious little mythology is nothing more than that.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Leona Conner
Posts: 476
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:40 am
Location: Tennessee

Post by Leona Conner »

The reason women never wrote a line in the Bible is becaue they weren't allow to (even if they were allow to learn to write).

Wouldn't it be a hoot if Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were pseudonyms for Martha, Mary, Lydia and Joan (sorry couldn't think of a Biblical name that starts with a J) :lol:
Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16035
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Post by Minimalist »

Fascinating show on National Geographic last night about how early christianity copied and stole shamelesly from other current mystery cults, such as Mithras, Isis and Appolonius but when it came to the Gnostic texts of other christians they were ruthlessly suppressed.

What was the Gnostic's crime? They tolerated women and gave them positions of authority. Can't have that, can we?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
RK Awl-O'Gist

reply

Post by RK Awl-O'Gist »

Leona Conner wrote: Wouldn't it be a hoot if Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were pseudonyms for Martha, Mary, Lydia and Joan (sorry couldn't think of a Biblical name that starts with a J) :lol:
Judith? :wink:
Rokcet Scientist

Re: reply

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

RK Awl-O'Gist wrote:
Leona Conner wrote: Wouldn't it be a hoot if Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were pseudonyms for Martha, Mary, Lydia and Joan (sorry couldn't think of a Biblical name that starts with a J) :lol:
Judith? :wink:
Yeay! :wink: Martha, Mary, Lydia and Judith!

Jesus' Angels!
Maybe he wasn't a poof after all!
Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16035
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Post by Minimalist »

To continue with the revelations of actual archaeology, Finklestein is getting into the question of King Saul.

As background, in his earlier book, he noted that at 3 different times throughout the Bronze Age down to the Iron Age, the same sort of dynamic had occurred wherein the coastal and agrarian city states collapsed and the nomadic peoples of the interior were forced to settle down to grow the grain that they could no longer trade to acquire. In all 3 occasions, the area split into a northern and southern region with the northern being, by far, the more populous and prosperous area. The third time it happened at the end of the Late Bronze Age, those northern nomads became the Israelites, and the southern nomads became the Judahites. They were never 'one people.'

Thus, while David was scampering around the southern hills, the area to the north of Jerusalem began to coalesce around the town of Gibeon and their leader could well have been someone named Saul or at least a recognizable facsimile because there was conflict with the Philistines. All of the "priests annointing Saul" crap was added later by the priests to make themselves look important.

Nonetheless, Saul was untimately defeated by the Philistines but the next blow to hit the area did not come from them but from the Egyptians. Pharoah Sheshonq I (known as Shishak in the bible) campaigned there around 925 BC. Sheshonq, in the accounting of his campaign on the walls of the Temple of Amun at Karnak, lists the towns and cities he smashed
including Megiddo on the northern coast road and Gibeon along with many others, however, as Finklestein says:
The bible, for its part, knows only one target for Shishak's campaign. In the terse report of 1 Kings 14:25-26, the pharoah's only mentioned objective is to attack Jerusalem, the capital of the Davidic dynasty. At this point in the Deuteronomistic History, Jerusalem has been a powerful and prosperous capital for about 80 years. David had reigned there as king of all Israel and had established a great empire. His son Solomon succeeded him and greatly embellished the capital city, constructing an elaborate palace and temple complex. Since Solomon's wealth was legendary it is little wonder that the bible reported Shishak's great haul of temple booty from his attack on Jerusalem including "the shields of gold which Solomon had made."

Biblical scholars have long considered the Shishak invasion mentioned in 1 Kings to be the earliest event described in the bible that is supported by an extrabiblical text. Yet Jerusalem-target of the pharoah's march into the highlands-does not appear on Sheshonq's Karnak list.

How can this be? Finklestein goes on to say:
At the time of the Sheshonq campaign Judah was still a marginal and isolated chiefdom in the southern highlands. Its poor material culture leaves no room to imagine great wealth in the temple-certainly not wealth large enough to appease an Egyptian pharoah's appetitie. From the archaeological evidence we must come to a conclusion that undermines the historical credibility of this specific biblical narrative. The reason that Jerusalem (or any other Judahite town or even village) does not appear on the Karnak inscription is surely that the southern highlands were irrelevant to Shishak's goals.

To summarize, when the bible was finally written down some centuries after the events, the authors, continuing to blame Solomon's son, Rehoboam for the breakup of their fictional United Monarchy, invented an attack by an outside power (a motif they would use extensively in later stories) to punish Rehoboam for his ineptitude.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Leona Conner
Posts: 476
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:40 am
Location: Tennessee

Post by Leona Conner »

Thanks for the Judith. Guess who doesn't know her Bible that well? :oops:
Frank Harrist

Post by Frank Harrist »

"Judith" is also a song by a band called Perfect Circle, which kinda goes like the post I edited earlier. An anti-religion song. Perfect name! :lol:
Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16035
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Post by Minimalist »

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Guest

Post by Guest »

How can this be? Finklestein goes on to say
a very fanciful tale if you ask me. sounds like he is a very bitter person who would not prove the Bible even if the dig unearthed a monument with the name 'king david' on it.

i would doubt his objectivity but like i said in another topic, he writes what you want to hear and you gobble it up dismissing other scholars who also work in israel and take a different approach and view. just because they believe the Bible does it make them unqualified or unable to tell what really happened.
Minimalist
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16035
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Post by Minimalist »

You really need to understand something, Arch.

Finklestein is not your real enemy, here. The real minimalist school of thought (which even I don't subscribe to) is best represented by Thomas Thompson and holds that the entire bible is complete and total bull shit, fabricated during the Hellenistic era and later. They maintain that the artifacts and extra biblical references are frauds or mistranslations.

Finklestein is trying to strike a middle ground by sorting out the priestly nonsense from actual historical fact. So is William Dever, another real archaeologist who disagrees with Finklestein but only by about 150 years. Finklestein sees historical reliability beginning in the northern kingdom of Israel in the late 9th century BC. Dever is willing to consider the possibility that there was a United Monarchy around 1,000 BC.

NO ONE, except bible-thumpers, puts any stock in anything prior to that time.

Finklestein is trying to salvage some shred of dignity for your precious bible...although frankly listening to you spout magical incantations about fairy tales, I think that maybe he shouldn't bother.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Frank Harrist

Post by Frank Harrist »

The first two finds are interesting. We've already discussed the first one. The third find, about the name smilar to Goliath, means nothing. In case I haven't stated this before, I just want to say that I think parts of the old testament are based on fact, loosely, with the possible exception of genesis, which seems to be a complete fairy tale. It's all been embellished to give it more impact and the timelines are vague at best. Having said that I must also say that I think the new testament is total bull.
Locked