Neanderthal News

[Beagle]

American civil rights movement,

and all the other civil rights movements,

The comparison is remarkedly apt john. I'm sure you know that there are many scientists who, if they had their way, would relegate Neanderthal to something "less than human".

That's the whole point. Keep the faith.

[kbs2244]

I don’t know if I can go with the idea the red ocher symbolized death.
Unless we want to push the ability to symbolize even farther. To the concept of projecting death.
In East Africa today, and in other parts of the globe through out history, it is used as body paint on the living. “War paint” on the warriors.
So, it isn’t only used in rituals related to the already dead. Although, logically, that would be the only evidence we could find after 100,000 years.
Was the figurine found in a burial context?

[daybrown]

I am disappointed with "The Cave Painters" by Gregory Curtis; it is a history of the discovery of various caves rather than the cave painters. I spoze there are copy write issues with showing us the images themselves, but some few are there nonetheless.

It'd make much more sense to present the cave art on a CD in video with the camera moving along so you had a sense of the 3 dimensionality taken advantage of by the artists using a bulge of rock to paint as a shoulder or whatever. As Curtis says, the flat photos just dont do the artwork justice.

But he also comments that the really great flowering occurred in the very same era when Homo Neanderthal and Sapiens first come in contact. Rather like similar developments when two formerly isolated cultures come in contact.

He reports that thru the whole of France during the Ice Age, there were only 5000 H. Neanderthalis, and for this reason rejects aggression as the cause of the demise. Hominids of whatever kind were not fighting over hunting territory.

The other point I pick up on from Curtis is how often unwarranted dismissibility is augmented by ad hominum to anyone who presents new data that does not fit in the mindframe of received authority, something we see still goes on on these forums.

But unless you are interested in these vociferous debates by 19th century French academicians, I would not bother with the book.

[Digit]

But unless you are interested in these vociferous debates by 19th century French academicians, I would not bother with the book.

I read a lot of it when I was younger, the largest load of horse manure I've ever come across. The results and opinion expressed at that time were a mixture of racism, nationalism, professional jealousy and a lot of unverified guesswork.

[daybrown]

But unless you are interested in these vociferous debates by 19th century French academicians, I would not bother with the book.

I read a lot of it when I was younger, the largest load of horse manure I've ever come across. The results and opinion expressed at that time were a mixture of racism, nationalism, professional jealousy and a lot of unverified guesswork.

So- what else is new?

Then, as now, a lot of it was caused by Christian sensibilities. They slammed Schleimann out of the idea that *only* Christian Scripture was history, all the rest was pure 'myth'. the Amazons, At Lunus, the Golden Age of Peace, all in one way or other challenge Christian dogma, and they really went ballistic over Ryan & Pitman's "Noah's Flood".

There's something in the Levantine religions in particular which wants to erase or debunk all history but that which they have created. The Taliban blowing up the Buddhas is only the most obvious example.

One of the photos Curtis shows is of a cave expedition, which included a French priest to perform exorcism of the demonic forces the artwork represented. [ When you bang your head on the keyboard over news like this, try to avoid the control keys ]

The doubters that the Neanderthals could have spirituality is evidence in my mind that 'they protest too much', and in fact lack that which they do not see in others. Curtis throws them a crumb by saying the the Neanderthal at Shanidar only has pollen with him, suggesting that it may have been brought in by rodents.

He dunno that rats would not have anything whatever to do with Cyanus Centaurea. It causes sterility and abortions. Missing from his analysis also are any acoustic experiments, or even computer reconstructions of the cave profile when it was in use as a sacred space.

[zale]

Then, as now, a lot of it was caused by Christian sensibilities. They slammed Schleimann out of the idea that *only* Christian Scripture was history, all the rest was pure 'myth'. .

Ironically, it seems there is more history and less myth in Homer than in the Bible...

[kbs2244]

There is a truly funny series of TV commercials running in the US showing the classic HN type guys in modern settings. Cocktail parties, airports, pool parties, etc, etc, etc.
They are the unkempt, hairy, heavy browed, hump shouldered, types we have been exposed to, but in a modern setting and dress.
There is always one of them going off by himself and shaking his head at the stenotype of his expected behavior, and the banality going on around him by the HS types.
They are selling car insurance, and the tag line is “So easy a cave man could do it.”

I would guess there is the possibility that, if they can figure out the best car insurance policy to get, they may be able to figure out how to bind and glue a point to a shaft, pick a suitable mate (if of their own “kind“ or not), worship something greater than themselves, and bury their dead in a respectful manner.
After all, it isn’t rocket science (sorry), just survival of the “kind.” (That implies a kind of concept of the future, beyond the present needs, doesn’t it?)
But I still don’t understand the allure of red ocher.
100,000 years of around the world use. Still going strong in some parts of the globe!
Come on! I do not have any desire to have someone paint my bones red after I have rotted away!
Why?

[Minimalist]

There is a truly funny series of TV commercials running in the US showing the classic HN type guys in modern settings. Cocktail parties, airports, pool parties, etc, etc, etc.

And, in full-color, living proof of Barnum's observation that "you'll never go broke underestimating the taste of the American public" they are making those commercials into a TV series.

[kbs2244]

Do you think there is any chance that the poor, underpaid, guy that first came up with the idea has it copywrited and will get his fair share?
The good side of all this is that it may make the general public realize that NH were not so dumb after all.
Kind of like Homer Simpson, doing the best he can with what he has to work with.

[daybrown]

i dunno where they are gonna go with the caveman show. But I've seen the commercials as a subtle dig at political racial correctness. Whatever these guys are, they are *white* Neanderthals.

So- where does the white skin come from?

The message too, that civilization is a thin veneer is not far behind the scenes. And kinda like dumb blonde jokes, what does it matter if stupid people make stupid racist jokes?

The advantage of being an Aryan is that there is nothing you can call me which will elicit an emotional response. If other races are too stupid to figure that out, its not my problem. If you cannot tell the diff between a competent Black man and a stupid nigger, you are prolly a redneck.

I didnt havta watch much of "Jericho" to realize it was written by stupid urban jackasses. I will, nonetheless watch this caveman show with some faint hope of sentience in the writing.

If Geico or whoever wants to put up signs saying "its so easy even Day Brown can do it", I dont have a problem, and will prolly laff all the way to the bank.

It'd be even more interesting to have a tv show of the first interactions between the hominids in Ice age Europe.

Consider the advantages of cooperation. The dudes who know the territory and the habits of the fauna, with the dudes who have better weapons, and then after the kill, you have these enormous hunks to carry tons of meat back to the women and kids.

No wonder the women got fat! And those few who had hips broad enuf to pop out hybrids would've done it year after year, and become, quite literally, the grandmothers of whole clans.

[Beagle]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/901351.html

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The artifacts found in the area of the cave are indicative of behavior patterns of humans who lived about 250,000 years ago, at the time of the Mousterian culture of Neanderthals in Europe.

So far studies have shown the tools of modern man in a much later period, about 170,000 years ago, in Ethiopia. The new findings are of great importance, connecting the earliest modern man to the Carmel Mountains man.

About 2 million years ago, with the movement of Homo erectus ("upright man") to Europe, Neanderthal man, a new species, developed. Prof. Israel Hershkovitz, of the Department of Anatomy and Anthropology at Tel Aviv University and a codirector of the excavations, says Neanderthals were stockier than modern man, with a larger skull and more massive limbs. Another species that developed from Homo erectus from Africa was Homo sapiens ("thinking man") or us. His skull and other physical dimensions were smaller and finer than those of Neanderthal man.

Back in 2001 two teams of doctoral students in anthropology from Tel Aviv University and archaeology doctoral students from the University of Haifa began excavating the Carmel caves. The dig revealed that even in the layers from 250,000 years ago, there were modern tools for cutting and hunting, such as blades made from flint. Archaeologist Yossi Zaidner says the blades indicate a modern technique of making blades, which including planning and design.

Professor Hershkovitz says first Homo sapiens who developed in Africa were stockier than modern man. "Still," says Hershkovitz, "it is possible that the final development of Homo sapiens happened here, in Israel, outside Africa. If a modern Homo sapiens is found in the layers from 250,000 years ago, he will belong to one of the earliest Homo sapiens population in the world, and possibly the earliest. Then all the theories of the development of modern man will have to be reexamined."

Neanderthal and HS shared the same land and even the same caves at alternate times for many millenia in the Levant. It's known that they lived side by side from around 115,000 to 95,000 ya. It's in this area that Erik Trinkaus has identified "hybrid" skeletons. I use the word hybrid carefully as we don't actually know if that is the case.

These people shared technology with one another at that time. But if a skeleton of HS is found at this 250,000 ya site it will really rock the boat.
I've felt for many years that HS as we know him began in the Levant.

[Minimalist]

It's in this area that Erik Trinkaus has identified "hybrid" skeletons.

Trinkaus must be dancing in the streets with this current revelation.

[Beagle]

I hope they find all or part of an HS skeleton, as that will be the end of the OOA theory. Among other things.

[Beagle]

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/nea ... ?seemore=y

So far everyone is ignoring the explanation that I have heard whispered more than any other. I don't think I'll be taking the wind out of anyone's sails by mentioning it here; it's the sort of problem that will keep being whispered until more information surfaces. Maybe the bone in question, Vi 33.16, is not a Neandertal at all. The bone is not securely provenienced -- it wasn't recognized as hominid in the initial excavation. There is no diagnostically Neandertal-like anatomy -- it's a smallish piece of a tibia. The only things making the bone Neandertal right now are its mtDNA sequence and a radiocarbon date of 38,310 BP.

The date by itself is not convincing -- a modern human at 38,000 BP would be old, but far from impossible. Also, it is unclear how recent changes in AMS protocols might affect it. The mtDNA is only convincing if you assume admixture to be impossible. Otherwise, why couldn't it be a modern human with a Neandertal somewhere in its maternal ancestry?

John Hawks telling it like it is. Geneticists working on the Neanderthal genome are convinced that the sample has been contaminated by HS DNA. Hawks is not convinced.

[daybrown]

Hawks has doubt about the population model. Curtis, in "the Cave Painters" suggests 5000 total hominid population in what is now France at the time of the cave art.

When you have so few, spread out so thinly, you have inbreeding, and adramatically higher standard deviation from any postulated genetic norm. I doubt that what we have, is all that representative.

I read reports that the HNS & HSS lived for many millennia in close proximation, if not together in the Levant. Yet, when HSS shows up in Europe, the remaining HNS suddenly disappears. What? they were peaceful in Palestine but genocidal in Europe?

Well, if you suggest that white men became genocidal murders suddenly 40,000 years ago, and have been ever since, there's lots who will buy it.

Meantime, if anyone finds a report on a frozen, rather than fossilized Neanderthal, I hope they let me know. Maybe then we can sort some of this out.