Could Abraham be from the Vedas?

[Digit]

The only "evidence" we have comes from the writings of Christian authors.

Agreed Min, but are you aware of any independent evidence for Buddha or Mohommed, yet they are seen as historical people?
Remember that Mohommed couldn't read or right so there are no writings of his around, just that of those who claimed to have known him.
Just as with Jesus, as I see it Min each case has the same value.

[Minimalist]

I don't know enough about the beginnings of Islam to comment. It does seem to have the same shady "God told me while I was away on a mountain" kind of pedigree as Moses and Joseph Smith, though.

What was it? Mohammad fell asleep in a cave and had a dream or something? Yeah. That's worth killing over!

[Ishtar]

I think they claim he did something called "automatic writing", Min. You know, just hold the pen and God does the rest sort of thing. I used to know someone who could claim she could do it, but when you looked at what she'd written, it was just gibberish!

[Digit]

Min. He was a trader with a rep for honesty who lived in Mecca and had a profound dislike of the various animistic religions practiced by his Arab neighbours. It is reputed that he went to Jerusalem to ask for help in converting the Arabs to Judaism and was ignored.
Eventually his teachings drove his neighbours to trying to kill him and he fled with a small band of followers to Medina, where he eventually raised a sufficient force to attack Mecca and kill his neighbours.
His teachings, which he claimed came to him direct from God, were expounded over a period of years, including such gems as the Sun sinks into a well of dirty water at the end of each day!
I learnt this years ago and memory being what it is ----.

[Minimalist]

I think they claim he did something called "automatic writing", Min. You know, just hold the pen and God does the rest sort of thing. I used to know someone who could claim she could do it, but when you looked at what she'd written, it was just gibberish!

True of most religious writing, my dear.

[Minimalist]

Spent the last half hour looking around for historical references to Mohammad, Dig. An unsuccessful search.

Since one can never get an impartial view of these things on the web (it seems) I specifically tried to avoid Christian/Jewish sites with an axe to grind. However, what was interesting is that even Islamic sites, who presumably would have more of an interest in presenting the historical relevance of their prophet do not bother to do so. Unlike Christians the Islamic sites don't seem terribly concerned with the historical aspect of Mohammad. It is an article of faith and they simply move on from there, as if no one would ever question the basis of their belief.

[Digit]

They don't have a lot of choice Min, the only evidence for the Prophet's existance is the Quaran! The earliest biographies date to about 150 yrs after his death, by which time the various factions were all busy trying to conquer or kill anybody not of Islam.
Some of the Books of the Apostles were at least set down within memory of people who witnessed the events ascribed to them.
There was a site on the net by an Islamic student showing up some of the absurdities of the Quaran, but it seems now to have been removed. I wonder why?

[Minimalist]

Some of the Books of the Apostles were at least set down within memory of people who witnessed the events ascribed to them.

Or so they claim.

[Ishtar]

I think Paul's is supposed to be the oldest account, and he never even met Jesus, or any of the so-called 12 disciples. He studied under a Greek Gnostic master. Same I think goes with the authors of the four gospels.

[Digit]

Some are supposed to have been written between 40 and 70 yrs after the crucifiction. Depending on who you ask of course.

[Minimalist]

I think Paul's is supposed to be the oldest account, and he never even met Jesus, or any of the so-called 12 disciples. He studied under a Greek Gnostic master. Same I think goes with the authors of the four gospels.

But can we be sure that what "Paul" wrote is what we now see? Bart Ehrman has demonstrated how the texts of the gospels were changed to make them conform to developing doctrine. Why not every other writing?

As the saying goes, where one lie is detected a thousand are suspected.

[john]

Hi John

What I'm talking about here, in particular, is the church putting out the propaganda for 2,000 years that Jesus was a real historical figure and that the events of the gospel actually happened, when you only have to look at other literature at that time to see that it was another version of a classic Mystery story, told to initiates before undergoing spiritual transformation. There is also no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. So that's a little bit more than "the eye of the beholder" although I do take your point on that more generally.

Ishtar -

I would broaden your point to include all sacerdotal literature (including "scientific" literature, by the way!), and, prior to the existence of that literature, representation by means of objects, paintings, carvings which were designed to achieve the same result.

i.e., at least the insinuation, and in many cases a methodical indoctrination that a present belief has an actual, historical past.

For example, the rites of Eleusis, which stand on the middle of the bridge between oral history and written history, have often been called upon to substantiate a particular interpretation of early Christianity. Maybe they did reflect the continuation of an ancient way of belief in which an at least omiscient and omnipresent Mother Goddess forces the annual death and reincarnation of a male King. Along with rites of initiation which perhaps included the ingestion of psychotropic substances.

And this hall of mirrors leads you to Isis and Osiris, and many others.

My point is, one cannot assign an historical identity to the Great Mother any more than one can to Jesus, as much as the pantheon of sacerdotal writers might try.

So, a question for all. What are the forces at play here?

And yeah I know this is a loaded question.


john

[Ishtar]

For example, the rites of Eleusis, which stand on the middle of the bridge between oral history and written history, have often been called upon to substantiate a particular interpretation of early Christianity. Maybe they did reflect the continuation of an ancient way of belief in which an at least omiscient and omnipresent Mother Goddess forces the annual death and reincarnation of a male King. Along with rites of initiation which perhaps included the ingestion of psychotropic substances.

My point is, one cannot assign an historical identity to the Great Mother any more than one can to Jesus, as much as the pantheon of sacerdotal writers might try.

So, a question for all. What are the forces at play here?

And yeah I know this is a loaded question.

john

Because I am learning about shamanism, I now have a different understanding about the meaning of the Mystery play to the most common interpretation - the annual death and rebirth of the King reflecting the seasons. Some historians think that all the ancients were concerned about was getting a good crop that year, and appeasing the nature spirits to achieve such outcome. Of course, it was an issue. Still is. But they also had a sense of a deeper reality.

Shamans have to undergo 'death' to become shamans. They have to 'die' to their old selves. Usually this takes the form of a very vivid dream. It did so in my case. But you'll find that many of the best shamans are so because they were brought back from the brink of death, literally, by another shaman.

(I must add, not that that 'death' situation is deliberately caused. I'm thinking here of two that I know: one nearly died as a child from a serious illness. He experienced going into 'death' but then the face of family friend appeared and led him back. That friend was a shaman and now that child has grown into a 40-ish year old man who is one of the best shaman teachers in Britain. Another was saved by the spirits when her car when into a lake.)

The Goddess, in these stories, represents the lower self, the self that has fallen into delusion that it is trapped in a material body, the fallen self, the fallen woman, e.g the prostitute Mary Magdelene. In some of these types of myths , there is a Higher Self Goddess who descends to rescue the Fallen Self (Demeter and Persephone, for example). In others of the stories, a Godman descends to rescue the Goddess (Ishtar and Tammuz, Sarama and Indra). Either way, the story is an allegory for self realisation, the two parts becoming whole again, the divine marriage.

The 'forces at play here' are different aspects of ourselves coming into totality again.

So that's why I think that at the Elusian rites they wouldn't have been teaching about the Mother Goddess as a historical person. That's my view anyway. Of course, not ever having attended an Eleusian rite, one can never be sure!

[clubs_stink]

"Another was saved by the spirits when her car when into a lake."

HER story is a hoax, sadly....read a lot of conflicting information about her story, and of course what she is doing with it now. $$$$$ sad. FIRE THE GRID

[Ishtar]

Oh..I'm sorry to hear that.

But the shaman death dream/experience is a classic and common phenomena among trainee shamans. I don't know if you remember, I mentioned a book on here a few weeks ago by Mircea Eliade, Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy. Eliade died in the Fifties but he was Professor of the History of Religions at Harvard and he pulled together all the reports from anthropologists (who hadn't a clue at what they were looking at) about shamans around the world. And he finds so many commonalities of experience between different shamanic groups, even those on opposite sides of the world who had never met one another. And one common factor was that initiates underwent some form of 'death' and 'rebirth'.

So I expect the Fire the Grid lady was just cashing in on that. I'd be interested to know what you heard about her Clubs.