archaeologist wrote:p.s. www.harkarkom.com may be a useful site for you to review as it deals with Mt. Sinai and some of the proofs found there
"What is the true story behind the biblical narration of Exodus?"
That since biblical narration of the Exodus is a late-monarchic invention by priests at the time of King Josiah, it is a reflection of the struggle of an emerging Kingdom of Judah trying to fend off a re-energized Egypt which was trying to reassert its traditional hegemony over Palestine.
The Pharoah, Necho, summoned Josiah to a meeting and killed him. Which pretty much ended the hopes for Judahite territorial aggrandizement....such hopes would have been rendered moot by subsequent Babylonian expansion, anyway.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
both in the Beersheba Valley and in Galilee, his synthesis is obsolete today
well since Dever said, it must be so??? i don't think so. i find that kind of statement convenient to one's personal views which avoids re-examining the data at hand. then we must take into account one's personal motives, beliefs and so on to determine if their conclusion is colored.
the same data can be used in such a way to back up the believer's viewpoint as ancient records are subject to interpretation and not taken from first hand experience.
my archaeological experiences have been focused on the time from creation to the flood so i am a little behind you on occupational information. i will need to read up a bit before i can discuss with you more indepth. should only take the weekend for me to do that, can you wait??
tough i question both dever's and finklestein's position because it comes from unbelief, which looks for proof to change their mind and when finding nothing that suits them, they conclude it can't possibly be true.
my archaeological experiences have been focused on the time from creation to the flood
In other words....mythology.
Just admit it. You could care less about archaeology. You just want someome to tell you that your fairy tales are 'right.'
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Well first off, the Bible has been translated so many times who is to say who is right and who is wrong. For all we know the bible is a story of fiction and nothing more, and since no one is alive from that time, well who can really say what really happened? Also the bible could have been and most likely was altered and translated in such a way to make the events of that time more appealing etc. Research has shown, in one instance, that the bible was edited to show God as a vengful wrathful God to get more people to attend Church or suffer eternal damnation in hell. So in the interests of science, archaeology and other tools of discovery...lets calm down.
first off, it is not your place to tell us to calm down. minimalist and i have come to an understanding and we are not angry at each other, at east that is my point of view and i am not yelling at him.
secondly,
In other words....mythology
no, but those are the hot topics of the real world while the occupation is usually reserved for intellectuals and scholars. but i willperuse some things this weekend and talk toyou about it next week.
You could care less about archaeology
actually i find archaeology fascinating, i just don't like one sided debates nor do i like assumptions based on what has not been found.
The thing is that the bible purports to be the absolute word of god but it covers a rather small and continuously lived in area. We all know that in archaeology one of the problems is that 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absense.'
But, because of the intense work that has been done for the last 130 years at least and because of the fortunate tendency for middle eastern dwellers to keep building on the same sites over and over, (probably for economic reasons) it has been possible for archaeologists to identify and excavate many of the sites which are featured in the bible. The problem is not absense of evidence but that the evidence which has been found shows that the bible does not accurately describe the time which it claims to describe. Israel Finklestein has set it at the reign of King Josiah ( 640 - 609 BC). Archaeology has found that Jerusalem, supposedly the capital of a great empire under David and Solomon was, in reality, a miserable little hill town of little significance until well into the 8th century BC. The bible thumpers hate it when that is pointed out to them again and again.
Aside from the archaeological evidence, scholars have detected various anachronisms in the biblical text, most notably:
the claim of the use of camels during the age of the patriarchs when camels were not domesticated until the first millenium;
the elaborate description of Arabian trade which suits a network which did not arise until the Assyrian empire started it;
the claim that the early Israelites battle Moab and Edom when such kingdoms did not arise until later on;
the direction, allegedly by god, for the fleeing Israelites of the Exodus to avoid the area of the Philistines. We now know that the Philistines did not settle on the Palestine coast until after they were defeated by Ramesses III around 1155 BC. At the time of the alleged Exodus the Philistines were not present in Palestine...but they had been there for centuries at the time the biblical story of the Exodus was invented;
and, as described above, the portrayal of Goliath in Greek hoplite armor fighting poor little David with his sling, 3 centuries before hoplites even existed in Greece.
You are correct in your assertion about the unreliability of biblical translations. Assuming a best case, we go from oral Aramaic tales to Hebrew to Greek to Latin to various Germanic/Romance/Slavic languages over the course of 2, 500 years. Try to imagine the effect such a series of translations would have on your computer's manual.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
i just don't like one sided debates nor do i like assumptions based on what has not been found.
But you are equally ready to deny what has been found.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Minimalist wrote:Until the next interruption from the bible belters, Finklestein draws on his previous study of settlement patterns in the Judean highlands.
In the case of the Judean Highlands in the period before the rise of the kingdom of Judah, we can indeed recognize a characteristic way of life. Because of the limitations to agriculture, due to the rocky, wooded terrain and the limited rainfall, the number of sedentary communities was relatively small. Only a handful of permanent sites, including Jerusalem, have been recorded in archaeological surveys of the entire territory throughout the Late Bronze and Early Iron Age (c. 1550 - 900 BCE). Most were tiny villages. There was no real urban center, and not even a single fortified town. In fact, the small sedentary population of the southern highlands can be estimated, on the basis of settlement size, at no more than a few thousand. This contrasts sharply with the lowland territories to the west; there, the major Canaanite and later Philistine city-states each contained dozens of towns and villages, with a large settled population in the main centers and outlying agricultural lands.
In other words, Judah at the time that David was running around in the hills as a kind of Jewish Robin Hood, was a backward region of nomadic herders who had no influence or impact on geopolitical affairs in the region.
However, Finklestein does see some some small measure of hope for actual historical fact in that by the time that there was sufficient literacy in Judah to have written the tale down, the sites described as the background for David's escapdes with his Merry Men, would have no longer been the unsettled and wild places mentioned in the tale. Therefore he gives credence to the description of David's early career as a bandit in the hills which should be some small measure of satisfaction for the bible belters....even if it is not the glorious empire that they would have hoped for.
I am confused, all of the above does not contradict any thing in the bible? If so how?
That is why it says" gives credence to the description of David's early carrer..."
what is the point here?
this was a little tribe of "merry men" at this point.
Ok I am going to read all of the info..on to the next.
Jerusalem CANNOT have been the capital of a far flung empire as described in the bible AND a shitty little one-horse town at the same time.
Archaeology has provided evidence for the shitty little one-horse town at the time of David and Solomon.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
There was no real urban center, and not even a single fortified town. In fact, the small sedentary population of the southern highlands can be estimated, on the basis of settlement size, at no more than a few thousand
this does not sound like objective scholarly work but an attempt to undermine the Biblical record through faulty interpretation.
Archaeology has provided evidence for the shitty little one-horse town at the time of David and Solomon
i think yo are grasping at straws here as people are desparate to disprove the Bible so they will use arbitrary methods to prove their point.
but anyways those are just comments on the last two replies from anobserver's point of view. i am having some trouble locating GOOD articles on the exodus and the occupation (the key word is GOOD).
by good, i mean works that are objective, not just minimalist's viewpoint or the evangelical side. anyone have any websites i can check out that are honest and present both sides fairly evenly??
It is difficult to find addition references to the exodus because Kings usualy recorded only there victories.
Things that were regarded as embarrassing were left out
of inscriptions or effaced.
Furthermore, successors would chisel away previous inscriptions.
Last edited by wtrfall on Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
i have already pointed out the fact concerning the silver scrolls. tobe brief--the silver scrolls are th oldest known artifact that contains an inscription of scripture--several thousands of years old--- the scripture engraved is the same as the modern printed versionsof the Bible.
sorry,
being a newbie I am sure that there is a lot I will say
that has been pointed out.
However, there is no way I will read eveything
on this forum.
I will catch up soon I hope. Please bare with me.
Lets just say, I second your findings there.
