Hey, that could be handy for a big lever and sharp edge where we need one. But remember the weight issues. I hope we don't draw the kind of crowd that gets belligerent around the campfire after a couple of companionable toddies, not good cess for an expedition, y'know.
Your spelunking rigging is really smart. Good stuff also fro climbing, which we may need to do as well.
Anyone here have a take on calorie requirements and kinds of lightweight pre-packed food we can use to supply us?
Water's a bit tight, too. We can ship a fair amount along but maybe there's a reliable system for atmospheric water vapor extraction and recycling of waste waters?
I'm thinking we probably have between 2 1/2, and 3 months possible time in the field, including setup and teardown. Always longer when packing up, more stuff going back than whe we came out.
Or should we figure in at least one, maybe two resupply connections and maybe some personnel rotation, and shipping back ahead some of the artifacts?
Barsoom Dig
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
Beagle - yeah, that sorta hangs me up, too. heck Miminalist and I probably share some atavistic ideas best left off the board here.
thanks for calling for help. This expedition's gonna need all we can wrangle in. Glad Minimalist's up for digs. Every possible job slot in this is open now. Writing Hilton (the expert, not the airhead) for some help in keeping good records on the job.
thanks for calling for help. This expedition's gonna need all we can wrangle in. Glad Minimalist's up for digs. Every possible job slot in this is open now. Writing Hilton (the expert, not the airhead) for some help in keeping good records on the job.
-
Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16033
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
Every expedition needs a trusty native guide.
Perhaps the one in the center might be recruited?
Perhaps the one in the center might be recruited?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
-
Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16033
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
Beagle wrote:BTW - thanks minimalist. Everytime I look back on this thread looking for clues, I get stuck on that semi-nude woman. Later.
I figured Michelle might have some problems if I really indulged myself.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
More Useful Planning Information
Carter sent some really helpful material in planning some of the expedition details. He said these are the key archaeological objectives of the project:
1. Locate and identify the ruins of the two principal early civilization centers, Thark and Warhoon, reportedly somewhere on the buried courses of major water supply channels in valleys surrounded by high mountains with year-round snowcaps
2. Locate and identify, if possible, remains of more recent leading population certers reportedly destroyed by nomadic tribes (apparently the cause of the fall of major civilizations there)
3. Characterize the size, age, and principal features of the sites and record possible locations for more focused future digs
4. Seek any possible archaeological evidence of reputed "lost technology" supposedly discovered and re-adapted by later civilizations
This is pretty big stuff. It sounds a LOT like the Bingham expeditions of the early 1900's looking for the "last redoubt" of the Incas that instead opened up Maccu Pichu. Only this time we have far more material to work with, and much more disciplined methods - we don't want to repeat Bingham's mistake and bypass one of our targets, even if it does lead to such wonderful new discoveries, too. Nor, of course, will we repeat his errors in essentially looting these important sites and creating a controversy later over proper provenance and rights to artifacts.
I think we had better widen the scope of these plans. There is clearly need for some ultra-light aircraft for overhead surveys; ground-penetrating radar equipment; serious surveying equipment and skilled personnel. (Any board members with ultra-light aircraft knowledge? What kind of load capability and range/endurance is possible with a collapsible UL that can be moved around and set up by no more than two people? Altitude restrictions?)
Carter also warned that while civilization has long passed from the scene, the native flora and fauna have not. We should expect heavy overgrowth in some areas, and a number of risks from both plant life and venemous or aggressive animal species. Someone with more knowledge than I should chip in here to specify the medical requirements this expedition should be prepared to address.
This is shaping up to be a bigger project than I expected. Good thing Carter has the financial backing for this - but he did say some unskilled volunteers may need to pay their own passage to and from the site. Their labor will be essential but with costs for overall project elements climbing, it is going to get tight.
1. Locate and identify the ruins of the two principal early civilization centers, Thark and Warhoon, reportedly somewhere on the buried courses of major water supply channels in valleys surrounded by high mountains with year-round snowcaps
2. Locate and identify, if possible, remains of more recent leading population certers reportedly destroyed by nomadic tribes (apparently the cause of the fall of major civilizations there)
3. Characterize the size, age, and principal features of the sites and record possible locations for more focused future digs
4. Seek any possible archaeological evidence of reputed "lost technology" supposedly discovered and re-adapted by later civilizations
This is pretty big stuff. It sounds a LOT like the Bingham expeditions of the early 1900's looking for the "last redoubt" of the Incas that instead opened up Maccu Pichu. Only this time we have far more material to work with, and much more disciplined methods - we don't want to repeat Bingham's mistake and bypass one of our targets, even if it does lead to such wonderful new discoveries, too. Nor, of course, will we repeat his errors in essentially looting these important sites and creating a controversy later over proper provenance and rights to artifacts.
I think we had better widen the scope of these plans. There is clearly need for some ultra-light aircraft for overhead surveys; ground-penetrating radar equipment; serious surveying equipment and skilled personnel. (Any board members with ultra-light aircraft knowledge? What kind of load capability and range/endurance is possible with a collapsible UL that can be moved around and set up by no more than two people? Altitude restrictions?)
Carter also warned that while civilization has long passed from the scene, the native flora and fauna have not. We should expect heavy overgrowth in some areas, and a number of risks from both plant life and venemous or aggressive animal species. Someone with more knowledge than I should chip in here to specify the medical requirements this expedition should be prepared to address.
This is shaping up to be a bigger project than I expected. Good thing Carter has the financial backing for this - but he did say some unskilled volunteers may need to pay their own passage to and from the site. Their labor will be essential but with costs for overall project elements climbing, it is going to get tight.
-
Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16033
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
-
Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16033
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
Good questions
The questions are pretty good. The answers are not going to satisfy much.
1. Minimalist suggested hiring native bearers. Given his photo posts, I wonder how bare he wants them to be.
But seriously, folks, that is not an option. Best information says there is no one living in the region now, and all personnel, supplies, etc. will have to be brought with us.
2. Beagle asks about how we pack the stuff in and how much can each of us handle.
Carter is in charge of the general logistics, so I'll have to send him a note and ask what he's got in mind. My understanding is that we will ship everything in as close as possible to the base camp and if possible use mechanical systems to then get things into the work sites - ATVs or something like that. Apparently although everything is in ruins and overgrown, there was at one time a fairly decent road system in the region and some more capable off-road units may be able to haul a lot.
This suggests we are probably going to be getting there in some pretty substantial transportation. Even broken down, things like ATVs take up space, have weight costs, and of course require at least minimal spare parts and a fuel supply. Too bad some of the experimental small fuel cells developed at Cal Tech and JPL can't be used, this seems like a perfect spot for them.
Even so, folk should realize this is no picnic in the park. It's going to be rough living and anyone thinking of signing up should be in the best possible physical condition by time of departure. We can expect to pack in at least our own personal supplies and a back-up ration for 3-5 days because of course something ALWAYS goes wrong.
As an example of sorts, in the late 1960's I signed up for a summer anthropology program studying villages in the then-remote parts of the Yucatan Peninsula (LONG before the development of Cancun and other esorts there). Our team parachuted in, while an STOL aircraft separately delivered a pallet of supplies and some livestock to a nearby field. We hiked over and then made a 250-mile journey by foot up the peninsula, doing our project and delivering to several villages two nannies and a billy goat to augment their local economic abilities and food sources. Right up to the day we met our management team at the end of the trail and flew back out, each of us packed about 80 pounds of stuff. Today the same things we carried, thanks to great development work, would have weighed half as much - and the food would have been both more plentiful and better for us.
So the short answer is plan to pack between 60 and 80 pounds of stuff sometimes for a couple of days, depending on how far out we also have to go from the base camp to the working sites.
But we still haven't made much of a dent in a detailed tratment of the equipment and supplies we might need. I'll do another post later about the overall personnel Carter has been working up.
1. Minimalist suggested hiring native bearers. Given his photo posts, I wonder how bare he wants them to be.
But seriously, folks, that is not an option. Best information says there is no one living in the region now, and all personnel, supplies, etc. will have to be brought with us.
2. Beagle asks about how we pack the stuff in and how much can each of us handle.
Carter is in charge of the general logistics, so I'll have to send him a note and ask what he's got in mind. My understanding is that we will ship everything in as close as possible to the base camp and if possible use mechanical systems to then get things into the work sites - ATVs or something like that. Apparently although everything is in ruins and overgrown, there was at one time a fairly decent road system in the region and some more capable off-road units may be able to haul a lot.
This suggests we are probably going to be getting there in some pretty substantial transportation. Even broken down, things like ATVs take up space, have weight costs, and of course require at least minimal spare parts and a fuel supply. Too bad some of the experimental small fuel cells developed at Cal Tech and JPL can't be used, this seems like a perfect spot for them.
Even so, folk should realize this is no picnic in the park. It's going to be rough living and anyone thinking of signing up should be in the best possible physical condition by time of departure. We can expect to pack in at least our own personal supplies and a back-up ration for 3-5 days because of course something ALWAYS goes wrong.
As an example of sorts, in the late 1960's I signed up for a summer anthropology program studying villages in the then-remote parts of the Yucatan Peninsula (LONG before the development of Cancun and other esorts there). Our team parachuted in, while an STOL aircraft separately delivered a pallet of supplies and some livestock to a nearby field. We hiked over and then made a 250-mile journey by foot up the peninsula, doing our project and delivering to several villages two nannies and a billy goat to augment their local economic abilities and food sources. Right up to the day we met our management team at the end of the trail and flew back out, each of us packed about 80 pounds of stuff. Today the same things we carried, thanks to great development work, would have weighed half as much - and the food would have been both more plentiful and better for us.
So the short answer is plan to pack between 60 and 80 pounds of stuff sometimes for a couple of days, depending on how far out we also have to go from the base camp to the working sites.
But we still haven't made much of a dent in a detailed tratment of the equipment and supplies we might need. I'll do another post later about the overall personnel Carter has been working up.
Project Funding
Carter is actually putting in a lot of his own money for this. He made quite a bit over the years with various publishing and other ventures. The rest comes out of a fund established by a consortium of private individuals, foundations and some corporations that see commercial value later in the "sponsorship" of the Barsoom Project.
For most archeaological projects, the budget would be considered lavish, but knowing Carter, I think he'll spend every cent, defend every expenditure, and hound some folk for more even while we're in the field.
For most archeaological projects, the budget would be considered lavish, but knowing Carter, I think he'll spend every cent, defend every expenditure, and hound some folk for more even while we're in the field.
-
Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16033
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
1. Minimalist suggested hiring native bearers. Given his photo posts, I wonder how bare he wants them to be.
I said "bearers" not "barers!"
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin