Paul H. wrote:stellarchaser wrote: But I have the feeling that for each picture you see from Visochica Hill, you post simmilar geological "example" allegedly proving it's not man-made.
What I want to say is that your arguments can be appliable to any square stone block found anywhere in the world and on any archeological excavations. As long that it's square, it can be natural, right? That proves nothing. Because it can be man made, too. And the opposite, of course.
This is not the argument, which I am making.
The basic argument being made by Mr. Osmanagic, Dr. Barakat, and Dr. El Hadidi is that the rectilinear shape of the stone blocks and the pseudopyramidal shape of their so-called "pyramids" are shapes that are impossible for natural processes have produced. By posting URL after URL for pictures of stone blocks after stone block from the Visocica Hill region and identifying them specifically as blocks from a man-made pyramid, Ciko is, in my opinion, is also arguing that it is impossible for nature to have made the rectilinear or quasi-rectilinear stone blocks shown in the pictures at URLs, which he posting. The problem with such arguments, including the statement that "It is really impossible that nature creates shapes like this. Maybe one, but not three or four sides of the hill as we have here.", is that they are readily demolished by any examination of the ranges of jointing and hill shapes produced by natural processes. The images, which I post of jointed bedrock are evidence that show that nature has quite often produced rectilinear blocks identical to those being found around the Visochica Hill area. Elsewhere, i.e. on the Ma'at message board, people have posted numerous pictures of natural pyramid-shaped hills, including one found in Antarctica.
(Note: For a picture of Pyramid Peak go look at "A cloud passes by windblown Pyramid Peak, in Antarctica" at"
http://brandy.weblogs.us/poster/a-cloud ... 18375.html
(Also, in doing a search of the USGS Geographic Names Information Systems database, I found 112 mountains and hills with "pyramid" in its name. Of these, 12 are named "Pyramid Mountain", 45 are named "Pyramid Peak", 4 are named "The Pyramids", 5 are named "The Pyramid", 6 are named "Pyramid Butte(s), 6 are named "Pyramid Rock", and so forth. The abundance of hills and mountain with the term "pyramid" in their name suggests to me that pyramid shaped landforms are far more numerous then Dr. El Hadidi argues. It might an interesting exercise to use digital elevation models to compare how close some of them and Visochica Hill come to being true pyramids.)
The point, which I am making with my pictures, is that neither the rectilinear nature, in some cases an imagined rectilinear nature, of either the stone blocks or alleged pyramids is useless as either proof or even an indicator that either their blocks or the pyramids are in any manner man-made. Mr. Osmanagic, Dr. Barakat, Dr. El Hadidi, and Ciko need something more substantial then rectilinear blocks and three-side pseudopyramidal shapes as proof that they are man-made features.
stellarchaser wrote: If man is making square stones, and nature is making square stones (obviously they both do), there must be reliable and experienced scientist, or better to say science, who will determine what is man made and what is natural. And I believe it can be done only at the spot or through scientific analysis (of which you know much more than me of course). In other words, it's pointless to deny or confirm nature of these blocks before that analysis is done.
From the pictures, which I have seen, of stone blocks being posted by Ciko and on the Bosnian pyramids site, the vast majority of these stone blocks are not the square or rectangular stone blocks, which you talk about. For example, although the surface of the sides of these blocks might be either flat surfaces or rough approximations of flat surfaces, the sides of many lack the precise 90 degrees angles at their corners. Instead, at best, some of these stone blocks might qualify as parallelograms and in many cases, the orientation of the sides of many of the blocks, which are claimed to be man-made, are not even parallel. In my opinion, the wide range of variability in the shape, size, and orientation of the sides of individual blocks, which comprise the “tightly-fitted” stone layers, is better explained as having been formed by a continuous layer of rock having been broken in place. The effort needed to individually cut and fit blocks that vary so much from each other in size, shape and the parallelism in order to create the tightly fitted stonework argued to be man-made would require an amazing amount of effort that defies common sense. In case of some occasional pictures of what appear to be man-made stone walls, likely Roman, Medieval, or other origin, the loose-fitting nature of the wall do not make the variability of the blocks composing it a problem.
Also, at a typical archaeological site, the bulk of stone blocks, being man-made and mass-produced, exhibit uniform, standard sizes and shapes, which are lacking in the pictures of stone blocks coming from the so-called Bosnian pyramids. For example, the majority of the various Egyptian pyramids consist of blocks or bricks, which are true rectangles and occur as standard sizes as the result of being mass-produced and designed for efficient construction. It might be common to see either non-standard size stone blocks or unmodified blocks used to build a **loosely fitted** stonewall, as seen in New England. However, the pictures of the "tight-fitting" Bosnian "stonework" exhibits none of the standardization of block sizes and shapes, which would indicate blocks intentionally designed for their production and the effecient construction of a structure as massive as pyramid.
Some of the stone blocks have joint patterns that form blocks that have absolutely no resemblance to either a square or rectangle. The jointing is so convoluted, irregular, and random that I wonder how any of tehse blocks can be argued to have been deliberate designed, manufactured, and used to construct a man-made layer of stone blocks. A good example of such stone blocks can be seen at:
http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/gallery/ ... amid15.jpg
A significant problem with some the Bosnian stone blocks in the often photographed excavation at the “Pyramid of the Moon”, as well as in other excavations, is that the layers, which they comprise, clearly extend into and are interlayered with the local Miocene bedrock. Unless a person agrees with Dr. Michael Cremo and other aficionados of OOPARTS, that "man-made" artifacts have been found in strata of the Cenozoic and older eras as far back as the Precambrian, it should be quite apparent that these stone layers are quite likely nothing more than jointed bedrock. What can be observed in the excavations, the basic laws of superposition, and information published in peer-reviewed journals about the geology of the area are more than enough to prove that some of the layers of stone blocks, claimed to be man-made, are interlayered with the local bedrock and must predate the existence of man in the Visocica Hill region by at least a couple of million years.
Pictures showing laminated Miocene bedrock interlayered with layers of stone blocks claimed to be man-made are:
1.
http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7337.jpg
2.
http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7285.jpg
3.
http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/11060602/DSCF7286.jpg
These pictures are from the “Prona?en novi ulaz u podzemni tunel - 11.06.2006” web page at:
http://www.piramidasunca.ba/news/news_i ... NewsID=113
Also, it is a major problem that more than one layer of stone blocks being excavated at the Pyramid of Moon all exhibit well-developed ripple marks of the type found in both modern and ancient lakes. One interesting observation, which can be made from the posted pictures, is that all of the ripple marks within a layer, regardless of being on the different blocks, are oriented in the same direction. Even worse, in some pictures, the same ripple mark is split between separate blocks and perfectly matched across the joint. In order to have this happen, a single bed would have to been carefully reassembled piece by piece in exactly the same positions in the current layer from which they were excavated from the original layer. This is such a patently illogical proposition that some supporters of these stone blocks as being man-made, are forced to claim in an equally silly and rather amusing manner that these features, which are quite clearly natural ripple marks, are actually man-made “decorations”.
An excellent example of an unequivocal natural set of ripple marks from an excavation at the “Pyramid of the Moon” is:
http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/gallery/ ... 79moj2.JPG
Another example of ripple marks is:
http://www.bosnian-pyramid.com/gallery/ ... 8168m3.JPG
stellarchaser wrote: Now we seeing that they are getting some real archeological artefacts (monoliths with inscriptions, standing wall). So the story of Visochica is not that simple. As any other geological or archeological site. Although Barakat said his opinion, he also suggested that team of international geologists should examine Visochica site. El Hadidi said the same. And that is what we need there.
The problem is that there are real and very valuable man-made structures, which have been built, and archaeological deposits, which have accumulated on Visochica Hill. The problem is that they have been conflated and confused in the imaginations of Mr. Osmanagic with natural hills and jointed bedrock to construct a chimera, much like the Archaeoraptor, which is composed of completely unrelated parts. Yes, there is real and very significant archaeology to be found on Visocica Hill region. The problem is that is not single shred of evidence to connect the real artifacts and real man-made structures with the jointed bedrocks and hills, which Mr. Osmanagic and his supporters also claim to be man-made.
It would be interesting to have such a team of international geologists investigate the site. However, the team certainly need to have at least of sedimentologists familiar with lake deposits on it. Whether, Mr. Osmanagic and his supporters would listen to anything that they had to say given that they completely ignored the first set of geologists, whose expert opinion they requested.
Best Regards,
Paul H.
